Water Additive Calcs with Batch Sparge Setup

[Zefram]

(I'm not 100% sure this is the right thread... apologies if not.)

My brew day involves a batch sparge setup. 4(ish) gallons in the initial mash, 5(ish) gallons after that. I usually fill up two 5-gallon water carboys with RO water from the local store, then treat the water prior to brewing.

I've read that you should treat the water the same regardless of the stage being used, so I treat all 10 gallons with the same additives.

In the "Other Ingredients" column of the recipe builder, the water additives options are mash and sparge. Do I need to separate out the additives for the initial mash water and then the dose of sparge water? It would be nice if there was a way to say that all water in the mash/sparge process was the same.

PS: I'm not too bright with water chemistry... just trying to understand it better

 

[Flying Weasels Home Brewery]

If you use the water calculator that is linked to your recipe (Water Chemistry, right under Other Ingredients), you can separate the mash and sparge water. But the presumption is that it is all the same water. You can reverse that presumption by checking the Use Different Waters for Mash and Sparge checkbox. Or, in the Salt Additions section, you can check Salts added to the Mash Only box, which has the same effect more or less.

Anyway, since you want to use all the same water, don't do any of that! Just use the high-level default options on the water chemistry calculator.

The mineral salts that you add to your mash water are mostly for ensuring your pH is good. By the time you add the sparge water, they've done their job. You don't want your sparge water to be overly alkaline because that may draw harsh flavors from your grain bed so some brewers add acid to the sparge water to keep it below 7 pH, but the minerals don't really matter.

 

[Zefram]

Thanks! I appreciate the response

 

[Dave Y]

If you use the water calculator that is linked to your recipe (Water Chemistry, right under Other Ingredients), you can separate the mash and sparge water. But the presumption is that it is all the same water. You can reverse that presumption by checking the Use Different Waters for Mash and Sparge checkbox. Or, in the Salt Additions section, you can check Salts added to the Mash Only box, which has the same effect more or less.

Anyway, since you want to use all the same water, don't do any of that! Just use the high-level default options on the water chemistry calculator.

The mineral salts that you add to your mash water are mostly for ensuring your pH is good. By the time you add the sparge water, they've done their job. You don't want your sparge water to be overly alkaline because that may draw harsh flavors from your grain bed so some brewers add acid to the sparge water to keep it below 7 pH, but the minerals don't really matter.

That's a good clarification. If I weren't so hard headed, I might have asked many moons ago when I was trying to figure out how to get the pH and chemistry just right.

I treat both now, but honestly I've had good luck just treating the mash water, previously. I have 2x all in one kettles so I do a 2 vessel brew, mash and boil in one kettle, sparge from the 2nd. I also pre-stage my acid and minerals, but I typically try to do it all in the mash kettle, then transfer to the sparge kettle.
@Zefram - when you save the recipe, are you clicking to get into the water calculator (separate page / tab) ?

In the below screen shot, right side ; Water Calculator ; green edit button
There's also a hyperlink right above if you've already one this - the GNRZXJV link for this one.

 

[Zefram]

I'm not sure I understand the water calculator part. My brain is thinking (1) select source water and then (2) use the water agents under "other ingredients" to get the target levels under "water chemistry". Below is an example for a recent brown.

I almost always start off with 10 gallons of water for brew day. I used to just use tap water with Campden (1/4 tablet per 5-gallon bucket... then let it sit open overnight), but some of the lighter and hoppier beers weren't turning out well. I switched to "RO" water from a grocery store dispenser and started tinkering with the water additives from there (I say "RO" because that's what the machine advertises... I'm not 100% convinced that's the same as the typical RO systems you see in brewing circles).

In the example below, I was adding the amounts of gypsum, CaCl, and baking soda to the full 10 gallons of brewing water. In reality, I'm using 3.75 gallons to mash, 1.5 gallons at the end of the mash, and then 3.5 gallons for the batch sparge. I'm thinking the water report isn't accurate because my additive quantities say mash when in fact they are amounts for everything else.

In the grand scheme of things, the beers are coming out nicely now so it isn't a big deal... but I'm always trying to better understand things. Plus, I'd hate to share a recipe that is gibberish

 

[Donoroto]

You have the right idea, your first paragraph is spot on.

The chloride to sulphate ratio in your image is about 1:1, great for a balanced beer. But for a hoppy or malty beer, you need to change that.

This is what John Palmer presents in How to Brew:

• 0-0.4: Too Malty
• 0.4-0.6: Very Malty
• 0.6-0.8: Malty
• 0.8-1.5: Balanced
• 1.5-2.0: Slightly Bitter
• 2-4: Bitter
• 4-9: Very bitter
• 9+: Too bitter!

So if you were to increase sulphate from 80 to 150, it would be ‘slightly bitter’. Up to 300, ‘bitter’, which seems closer to what you are looking for. 600 is not unreasonable for an IPA or Pilsner.

If that was my recipe, and I wanted bitter, I’d add a few grams of MgSO4, epsom salt. You have room to increase Mg, while CaSO4 (gypsum) is slightly harder to dissolve, although more Ca would not hurt.

For a malty brown, calcium chloride would do.

 

[Dave Y]

I'm not sure I understand the water calculator part. My brain is thinking (1) select source water and then (2) use the water agents under "other ingredients" to get the target levels under "water chemistry". Below is an example for a recent brown.

I almost always start off with 10 gallons of water for brew day. I used to just use tap water with Campden (1/4 tablet per 5-gallon bucket... then let it sit open overnight), but some of the lighter and hoppier beers weren't turning out well. I switched to "RO" water from a grocery store dispenser and started tinkering with the water additives from there (I say "RO" because that's what the machine advertises... I'm not 100% convinced that's the same as the typical RO systems you see in brewing circles).

In the example below, I was adding the amounts of gypsum, CaCl, and baking soda to the full 10 gallons of brewing water. In reality, I'm using 3.75 gallons to mash, 1.5 gallons at the end of the mash, and then 3.5 gallons for the batch sparge. I'm thinking the water report isn't accurate because my additive quantities say mash when in fact they are amounts for everything else.

In the grand scheme of things, the beers are coming out nicely now so it isn't a big deal... but I'm always trying to better understand things. Plus, I'd hate to share a recipe that is gibberish

View attachment 34047

What I was asking previously was are you clicking that link button to open up the calculator page. It's more complex but also a bit more easy to navigate.

 

[Bigbre04]

@Zefram I would look at water chemistry as a final boss to the brewing game. If you hit the Balanced profile you should be good for 95% of your batches. get everything dialed in and then worry about it. I brew basically every style of beer using the same salt addition and it works just fine(brewed a Session juicy, Oyster stout, hefe, and a bock this week lol). It is highly unlikely that you would be able to pick out the traditional water vs balanced profile of the exact same beer.

That being said, I toss all of my salts into my mash water. My city water leaves me with Balanced 2 being the only option that is reasonable for me to hit. I add 20g of Gyp and 20g of CaCl2 to my mash water. I also adjust my ph for each batch using Phosphoric acid, generally i add 20ml, but some styles need more or less.

I dont use RO as my city water is just fine and damn near free. But you do you on the RO on my scale the RO is very wasteful.