Trouble with OG/IBU and Kettle/fermenter

Discussion in 'Recipe Editor' started by Hobbes, Mar 10, 2018.

  1. Hobbes

    Hobbes Member

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    I've got my profile setup but can't seem to align the OG and IBU depending on pre-boil and post-boil/kettle volume. All the recipes appear to be just a little off when compared to other softwares. Any help or insight into how the equipment profile works with the editor would be appreciated. Sorry for the long post.

    How my profile is setup:
    I've got 1g of losses due to hoses/chiller when going kettle to fermenter. I also boil off 1.5gal per hour. Shrinkage is at 4%. So my pre-boil volume is usually 8.3gal which boils off down to 6.8gal and with shrinkage gets me to 6.5 in the kettle. Then i transfer to my fermenter getting 5.5gal. After fermentation and bottling losses i end up with 5gal of beer in a keg.

    When i build a recipe I would expect to put either "5.5" for fermenter or "6.5" for ending kettle and 8.3 for preboil. The issue is that when flipping kettle <> fermenter nothing changes in the OG/IBU calcs. If i put 5.5 fermenter, then flip it to 5.5 kettle i would expect it to have thought the previous setup was "5.5 ferm, so 6.5 kettle" and now i have "5.5 kettle" so there is 1 gallon less wort... i'd expect the OG/IBU to go up as it thinks i've boiled off more water somehow. I'd be happy with just sticking "6.5" in there and building to suit as I know what my loses are, however; it appears leaving 6.5 affects OG. With a bel dubble i'm working i get 1.072 at 5.5 with fermenter, but 6.5 kettle gives me 1.061.

    The issue is also present with 10gal batches... i do a 14g boil to get 12.5g of worth with .5g shrinkage ending up with 12g in kettle which results in 11g going into two fermenters (5.5 gall each). After .5 gallon loses on each fermenter i end up with two full 5g kegs.

    I think there are two main issues i need help with:
    1) It looks like OG doesn't account for your kettle loses if you specify ending fermenter volume. If i have 4qt of losses in my system from kettle to fermenter. When i swap from "6.5 kettle" to "5.5 fermenter" it shouldn't change OG because 5.5. fermenter is actually 6.5 kettle in my system. If i just leave 6.5 and swap kettle<>fermenter i would expect OG and IBU values to change but they stay the same. I can play with Brewhouse eff, but I feel like that number should be 'mash eff' or 'kettle eff' when doing 'ending kettle' and only allow it to say "brewhouse eff' when you pick fermenter. I would expect any value put into BH to be using total ending bottle volume to generate a total brewhouse eff of losses from mash to kettle, from kettle to fermenter, and from fermenter to keg/bottles.

    I suspect i need to change efficiency from "72" to what my mash eff is (85% usually) when specifying "kettle" ... as the OG goes from 1.061 back to 1.072 matching what i had for 5.5 into the fermenter.

    2) It appears the Calc for the IBU is tied to pre-boil volume more that I would think it would be. If i adjust preboil vol the IBU's change... which i'm not aware of any reason why it'd change so much (changing 8.3g to 5.5g goes from 26IBU to 21IBU). If I keep my hop additions the same (60min and 30min) but adjust my boil to be 90mins like i might do with a pilsner the IBUs should stay the same (which they do). The "ending kettle" number has not changed but due to the extra 30 min boil i need to have 0.75gal more pre-boil to end up at the same ending kettle... so i adjust pre-boil from 8.3 to 9 and the IBUs change by more than 1 IBU. The IBUs for a recipe i brew often are 20 on one software but 26 in this. 1oz of 10%AA at 60 and .75oz of 4% aa at 30. A few IBU I would normally not care about, but 6 seems like a lot, and for a dubbel it throws it "out of style" by 1. Recipe seems fine, maybe i'm too picky but i want to get a grasp on these values before I get too far in.

    This one too appears to match my previous software if i set efficiency to "85%" and kettle 6.5, i end up with 20ish IBUs. Putting 5.5 into fermenter and BH of 72 showing 26 IBU. It may help if the formulas were spit out on an "advanced" page so I could get an idea of what's happening. I have a feeling that since kettle<>fermenter toggling doesn't change anything that something is off; and that ending kettle with 85% eff is probably the more correct IBU display since it technically shouldn't be doing any calcs on kettle/fermenter losses. But i'm at a loss as to how the IBU would change once i have 6.5 in the kettle and transfer to the fermenter.. the IBUs wouldn't go "up" once the boil is done... 6.5 in kettle at 20ibu shouldn't be 5.5 in fermenter at 26ibu.

    An IPA that I make at 1.066 and 54 IBUs works fine with 6.5 kettle and 85% eff; but if i change to 5.5 ferm with 72% eff i get 69IBU but a really close OG at 1.067.
     
  2. Ozarks Mountain Brew

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    try playing with your Mash Guidelines: Starting Mash Thickness: set it to 2 as a test and see how drastic it changes things especially the water, you can adjust from there

    another variable is the yeast attenuation, set it to custom and play with differences
     
  3. Hobbes

    Hobbes Member

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    Well.. that's another issue entirley. The mash has no affect on anythign at all. If i change from 1.5qt/lb to 2 nothing changes. I have to actually edit the mash vol and sparge vol. I can also edit the mash vol from 5.3g to 20g and nothing changes. I have a feeling the mash entry section is mostly just for show until you get pump your recipe into a "brew" day and then the values are used to populate fields as you enter brew log entries.

    I do double check, i put 20 instead of 1.5qt/g and nothing changed. I also tried just editing mash and sparge volumes from normal values to crazy "20g" levels and nothing changed on OG, IBU and pre-boil etc.
     
  4. Hobbes

    Hobbes Member

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    didn't think about yeast atten, but that shouldn't affect IBU and OG... maybe FG. I tried real quick toggling att from 50<>100 and it appears to only adjust FG and acl % which i can agree.
     
  5. Ozarks Mountain Brew

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    just throwing out variables that change things, I've set mine to kettle and it seems to work more precise but yes it needs some work, it gets even more tricky when you look at your brew steps sheet
     
  6. Hobbes

    Hobbes Member

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    And whats' more interesting, is selecting an equipment profile then picking "no equipment selected" doesn't appear to change values. This leads me to believe i have a setting somewhere that is causing it to ignore my equipment profile regardless...

    If you change your kettle deadspace in the equipment and leave the recipe target "into fermenter" the same do you values change? I'd expect to see pre-boil go "up", but that's a user editable field.

    I'm curious as to when any of these values in equipment profile are used... i don't think it's possible to have pre-boil, ending kettle, and efficiency be all user editable if we're using an equipment profile.
     
  7. Ozarks Mountain Brew

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    are you saving your recipe every time? you need too
     
  8. Hobbes

    Hobbes Member

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    Yup, exactly... setting it to kettle gets me close to a couple other softwares I'm using. I can't imagine the values we put in equipment aren't used at all though, i must be missing something that's staring right at me.
     
  9. Ozarks Mountain Brew

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    when changing defaults allot of time you need to refresh the recipe page too
     
  10. Hobbes

    Hobbes Member

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    You know what, i wasn't... but values change when i edit things so i'd expect that all values would change and anything that requires a "save" would prompt me. Maybe not.

    I did just try changing the equipment profile and then saving.. OG, IBU, BH, all stayed same. Same with toggling kettle<>fermenter when i have equipment profiles selected that should be taking away 1gallon of wort due to dead spaces.
     
  11. Hobbes

    Hobbes Member

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    good idea... maybe a bug, however saving and refreshing doesn't appear to change anything either. Does anyone have a setup where if they change "kettle" to "fermenter" for ending volume they are able to see OG move?

    I tried putting 1gallon for misc dead spaces nothing had "0". I would expect to see changing from "fermenter" to "kettle" while leaving the volume the same would assume less total wort since the "to fermenter" calc would have been minus losses.
     
  12. Ozarks Mountain Brew

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    by the way the efficiency on the recipe page is brew house not mash
     
  13. Hobbes

    Hobbes Member

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    I'm not sure on that one... I know it says Eff and the help link takes you to a nice diagram on how they calc it. But none of the varaibles in my profile that would affect BH seem to come into play. If it was Bh then it would account for losses due to hoses, kettle deadspace. If i set this value to 85% and batch size to my ending kettle (6.5g) i get a realistic number that matches my efficiency pre/post boil (mash eff) in the IBU/OG. However, this def does not match my BH eff which is closer to 72% due to 1gallon losses of stuff left behind in kettle and losing .5-.75g due to fermenter trub. If i set this to 72% then my IBU goes up and my OG goes down. (not sure why IBU goes up... but it goes up by 1). My OG goes from

    I could see it being BH eff if you pick Fermenter because that would include losses and you could infer packaged volume based on fermenter loses. And I could see it being Mash Eff if you pick kettle because preboil/postboil shouldn't really change eff at all. But it seems to be Mash Eff more than anything... as losses in the system are not changing the value of OG no matter what i input. The only thing I can get to change OG is by changing batch volume or efficiency.
     
  14. Hobbes

    Hobbes Member

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    It does say "brew house" when you pick fermenter next to it.. and toggling to kettle says "kettle eff". So I believe that was the intent, but i'm just not seeing the values of OG/IBU match that intent. I'll eyeball the profile/setting page... maybe i have something unchecked that causes the sytem to play as if i have no equip profile.
     
  15. Ozarks Mountain Brew

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    yes it includes the sparge and that can create some problems for some people so its really not just mash or final brew house, I have a 3 pot herms set up and I hit my numbers right on except water is sometimes off, I set mine to 80% for most brews
     
  16. Ozarks Mountain Brew

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    one thing to note, hops can soak up allot of water and change per recipe
     
  17. Hobbes

    Hobbes Member

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    Right... but there's a field for that in the profile... for hop and grain abortion rates. I'm failing to see where it comes into play though... If i'm specifying both pre-boil volume and post-boil volume then what does the grain and hop absorption come into play? I'd think it'd be if i specify kettle volume then pre-boil volume would be calculated using hop absorption and boil off rate. If i flip it to "fermenter" then it'd pre-boil vol would also include kettle losses and 'misc losses'.

    if i change hops abs to "50" from "0.5" then go back to my recipe nothing changes. I tried changing profiles, saving, refreshing, changin profile back, saving, refreshing and the result is all my OG, IBU pre-boil and "kettle" vol are the same.
     
  18. Ozarks Mountain Brew

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    I've sent a message to the developers, maybe a few days but well figure something out
     
  19. Hobbes

    Hobbes Member

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    Wondering if everyone really just uses "
    Thanks, I appreciate it. I'm sure i've just managed to uncheck something somewhere, or i'm not using something as it's intended purpose.
     

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