Support for No Boil/Raw Ale Recipes

[drgonzo2k2]

I'm starting to play around a bit with no boil/raw ale recipes, and I find them difficult to put together in Brewer's Friend for a couple of reasons...

1) It assumes there will always be a boil, and for example, in my 6 gallon no boil batch (0 minute boil time specified) it is still telling me that I need to collect 6.76 gallons from my mash runnings.

2) It then calculates an SG (some how, not sure) which is 6 points higher than my boil gravity (1.054 vs. 1.048); however, in a no boil situation, there shouldn't be any difference between your "boil" gravity and your SG, since you're not boiling thus reducing the volume/increasing the gravity of your wort, right?

I can sorta see how 1 makes sense how it is... It says I need to collect 6.76 gallons because my kettle dead space is .13 gallons, hops will absorb another .11 gallons, and I've got a misc. losses in my profile setup to .5, so if you do the math you'd arrive at 6 gallons in the fermenter (which is what I was shooting for), but I don't get the SG vs. boil gravity difference if you specify a 0 minute boil.

 

[BrewersFriend_Matt]

Hmm... that's really interesting, thanks for bringing it up.

I'd suggest setting the Boil Volume and Batch Volume (fermenter) to the same amount (in your case, 6 gallons). When I did that, the boil gravity and original (post-boil) gravity lined up. Check out these screenshots, hopefully that helps.





Let me know if that doesn't work for you and we can see what else might be going on there. Thanks!

 

[drgonzo2k2]

Thanks for the fast response. I tried that, and you're correct, it did make the numbers line up; however, I think it's doing it in the wrong way...

In my original example, I had a pre-boil gravity of 1.048 and a SG of 1.054, based on a 6 gallon (fermenter) recipe, with a 6.76 gallon boil size.

I changed the boil size to 6 to match my fermenter volume, and now my pre-boil gravity has changed to 1.054.

I would expect it should go the other way, and that by SG should now be 1.048, no? Or am I mistaken here?

 

[BrewersFriend_Matt]

I think it actually makes sense that it went up -- you're keeping the sugars the same, but lowering the volume (from 6.75 to 6), so you'd have a higher concentration of sugars, so a higher SG.

 

[drgonzo2k2]

But I'm lowering the overall volume of everything, not just the volume of water, correct?

So in my original example, I am still going to collect 6.76 gallons of 1.048 runnings from my mash tun into the boil kettle.

I'm not going to boil anything (so I won't concentrate the wort), but some of my wort will be lost:

.13 gallons will be lost due to hop absorption from my whirlpool

.11 gallons will be lost to due kettle dead space when I drain to my fermenter

.5 gallons will be lost due to my "misc. losses" (I use this to account for the liquid that is lost from swapping hoses multiple times through the brew)

So in the end I should wind up with 6 gallons of wort with the same gravity as went into the kettle, as when the liquid is absorbed/lost, I would also lose the sugars dissolved in that liquid.

Is that not correct, or am I misunderstanding something?

 

[BrewersFriend_Matt]

Ah, I see what you're saying. I'm not really sure about this one, but I'll definitely add it to the list of things to look into going forward.

 

[drgonzo2k2]

Thanks, Matt! Appreciate you giving it some thought. I'll actually be "brewing" this recipe in a couple of weeks, so I'll let you know how it goes in the real world.

 

[BrewersFriend_Matt]

Thanks, Matt! Appreciate you giving it some thought. I'll actually be "brewing" this recipe in a couple of weeks, so I'll let you know how it goes in the real world.

Please do! I'd really love to learn more about this whole process. There's always something new to learn in life, and brewing is no exception.

 

[BrewersFriend_Matt]

Alright, so I did some digging with people here, and here's what it seems like is happening.

The equipment profile, where it's going to take into account the deadspace/etc. loss that you account for is used during the brew session, not in the recipe builder itself.

This means that when the boil size and batch size are different, it doesn’t take the configured equipment losses into account – it simply assumes that that’s volume lost from the boil (even if the boil time is zero). Without using the equipment profile, there’s no other way for it to attribute some of that to non-boil-off loss.

I think the best solution is to use a “Kettle” target for batch size. This way, you can set that volume to 6.76, same as the boil size, and all calculations for gravity take place on the pre-boil volume/gravity.

Let me know what you think of that - if it all makes sense and ends up working for you. Thanks for you patience -- this is definitely a new one for me!

 

[drgonzo2k2]

Alright, so I did some digging with people here, and here's what it seems like is happening.

The equipment profile, where it's going to take into account the deadspace/etc. loss that you account for is used during the brew session, not in the recipe builder itself.

This means that when the boil size and batch size are different, it doesn’t take the configured equipment losses into account – it simply assumes that that’s volume lost from the boil (even if the boil time is zero). Without using the equipment profile, there’s no other way for it to attribute some of that to non-boil-off loss.

I think the best solution is to use a “Kettle” target for batch size. This way, you can set that volume to 6.76, same as the boil size, and all calculations for gravity take place on the pre-boil volume/gravity.

Let me know what you think of that - if it all makes sense and ends up working for you. Thanks for you patience -- this is definitely a new one for me!

Hey Matt,

I actually just finished my first no boil brew day and came back here to give you the results when I saw this response. I will give it a shot with my next no boil ale.

For today's brew day the pre-boil, post-boil, and fermenter gravity was all the same - 1.048. I put a little under 6.75 gallons in the brew kettle and pulled off my anticipated 6 gallons into the fermenter.

I will try it the way you suggested next time and report back.

 

[drgonzo2k2]

Hey Matt, so I gave that a try, and it definitely does work, so thanks for the tip. Now that I know the workaround it makes sense. It could be a little more straightforward though. When setting up a new recipe you basically have to...

- Begin the recipe targeting your batch size to what you want in the fermenter
- You then get it close, save the reciepe, and then view the recipe to see if your "boil gravity" is what you're looking for
- Then you have to check the quick water requirements to see what your boil size should be
- You then edit the receipe again, setting batch size targeting to kettle, and then you dial in your boil size to what the quick water requirements state, and make the batch size the same

Then everything lines up. Again, now that I know how to do it, not too bad, but for someone starting from scratch, that's not so evident. It works though, so I'll take it!