Such high hopes!

Discussion in 'Recipes for Feedback' started by Brewer #50528, Sep 17, 2015.

  1. Brewer #50528

    Brewer #50528 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2015
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Title: Sideyard Pale (APA)

    Brew Method: Extract
    Style Name: American Pale Ale
    Boil Time: 60 min
    Batch Size: 5.5 gallons (fermentor volume)
    Boil Size: 3 gallons
    Boil Gravity: 1.109
    Efficiency: 35% (steeping grains only)

    STATS:
    Original Gravity: 1.060
    Final Gravity: 1.014
    ABV (standard): 5.99%
    IBU (tinseth): 38.91
    SRM (morey): 9.35

    FERMENTABLES:
    5.85 lb - Dry Malt Extract - Light (52%)
    6.25 oz - Corn Sugar - Dextrose (3.5%)

    STEEPING GRAINS:
    3.75 lb - American - Pale 2-Row (33.4%)
    0.75 lb - Belgian - Munich (6.7%)
    0.25 lb - American - Caramel / Crystal 120L (2.2%)
    0.25 lb - American - Caramel / Crystal 60L (2.2%)

    HOPS:
    1 oz - Cascade, Type: Leaf/Whole, AA: 7, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 12.9
    1 oz - Simcoe, Type: Leaf/Whole, AA: 12.7, Use: Boil for 30 min, IBU: 17.98
    1 oz - Willamette, Type: Leaf/Whole, AA: 4.5, Use: Boil for 30 min, IBU: 6.37
    1 oz - Willamette, Type: Leaf/Whole, AA: 4.5, Use: Boil for 5 min, IBU: 1.65
    1 oz - Cascade, Type: Leaf/Whole, AA: 7, Use: Boil for 0 min
    0.25 oz - Cascade, Type: Leaf/Whole, AA: 7, Use: Boil for 0 min
    1 oz - Simcoe, Type: Leaf/Whole, AA: 12.7, Use: Boil for 0 min
    0.25 oz - Willamette, Type: Leaf/Whole, AA: 4.5, Use: Boil for 0 min

    YEAST:
    White Labs - California Ale Yeast WLP001
    Starter: No
    Form: Liquid
    Attenuation (avg): 76.5%
    Flocculation: Medium
    Optimum Temp: 68 - 73 F
    Fermentation Temp: 68 F
    Pitch Rate: 0.5 (M cells / ml / deg P)

    TARGET WATER PROFILE:
    Profile Name: Light colored and hoppy
    Ca2: 75
    Mg2: 5
    Na: 10
    Cl: 50
    SO4: 150
    HCO3: 0
    Water Notes:
    Crystal Geyser.




    Sideyard Pale was intended to be a warm-weather Session Pale, but mutated into about a 6 ABV beer that I end up slamming and it makes me mighty happy, but i was hoping for a meatier, dare I say Danker, beer.

    I may be early: 2 weeks in primary, 2 in Secondary, 1.5 in bottles, intentionally high corn sugar.

    I feel like I'm drinking Paulaner Hef, albeit without that full feeling after a couple. And it's got kick for a fast-drinking beer. But where did that bannana come from?

    Background: I moved to the Pacific Northwest to get into brewing, been up here 2 years, but these first batches are intended as Session Pale Crowd Pleasers, for a converted Coors Light Cowboy from Texas. By that, I mean I drink fast, so I can't do stronger beers, or, well, you know.

    I bottled into Flensberger 11 oz bottles, and then a case of Grolsch bottles and some other random large formats. I'm starting (drinking) the 11 oz-ers, of course, and these first few are nothing like I expected. I'm not unhappy, and I know the beer will mature.

    But -- from viewing the recipe, and keeping it Extract, how would you have added a more pronounced hop profile, with some piney dankitude and maybe a little more body? I think that's called an IPA. [emoji!] But my goal was a full-bodied APA in the 5%s.

    BTW, this is my first post, and I love this site. Thank you for your advice!
     
  2. jmcnamara

    jmcnamara Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2012
    Messages:
    2,457
    Likes Received:
    1,947
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Rosedale, MD
    Not too sure on the hops, but a quick search showed Centennial, Chinook, and Galaxy were some of the more popular dank hops, but it seemed to vary a bit person to person. I remember Stone's Enjoy By IPA as being pretty dank, maybe see what they used for that.
    Also, over 4 lbs of grain seems like a lot to steep in an extract recipe. Depending on the temperature and how long you steep it, you're basically doing a partial mash with that part of the grist.
    At any rate, I definitely agree with you on finding that perfect "gateway" beer for someone who's only had the macros or no beer at all. still working on that one myself
     
  3. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    9,407
    Likes Received:
    6,652
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Aurora, CO, USA
    Most of those "steeping" grains you mention need to be mashed. Did you do a mini-mash? But that would have driven your yield higher than steeping, since most of the starches in the grains haven't been converted to sugars. How did you do your steep? If you soaked the grains in water around 152 degrees for any length of time, you mashed. Steeping efficiency is generally less so that might account for your increase in yield over what you wanted.
     
  4. Ozarks Mountain Brew

    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Messages:
    7,767
    Likes Received:
    3,976
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    IT Managment
    Location:
    The Ozark Mountains of Missouri
    also if you want more body add some carapils .5 pounds, my personal partial mash setup is to add the grain to the cold water, heat up to like 152 then hold for 30 minutes, dunk several times and discard
     
  5. Brewer #50528

    Brewer #50528 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2015
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Hey, thank you all - I steeped the grains at 157 for 30 minutes, vigorously stirring and punching the bag with a vented spoon.

    I'm thinking of doing an IPA using Columbus, Chinook and Apollo. I'm still a training wheels guy though (extract) - I do have grains to steep. In general, are my methods sound?
     
  6. jmcnamara

    jmcnamara Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2012
    Messages:
    2,457
    Likes Received:
    1,947
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Rosedale, MD
    add another 30 minutes and you are mashing my friend!
    while i can't tell a whole lot about your particular process from these posts, it sounds like you've got the basics down.
    however, i go back to the steeping grains. it's been a bit since i've done an extract batch, but I don't remember using more than a pound, maybe 2, of specialty grains per batch.
    i'd also suggest doing a couple of smaller test batches so you can start to pick out individual ingredients (1 gallon made with steeped crystal 20 vs another gallon made with crystal 120, same recipe otherwise). Same thing with different yeasts and hops.
    nothing's wrong with extract, as long as you're making good beer that you enjoy, who cares what you use.
    also, everyone (and their palate and brewing setup) is a little different, so what works for me may not work for you. I almost always use a secondary, a lot of people don't. I don't mess with ph or water chemistry (yet at least) and other people geek out over that stuff. i can honestly say some of the most fun is figuring all that stuff out.
    good luck!
     
  7. cearum

    cearum Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2012
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Metro Detroit, MI
    If you're just starting on the brewing/recipe formulation I would recommend using kits (or just copying them as most post their recipes). They're proven and easy to help get the basics down pat. Then branch into building your own based on what you've learned by brewing them.

    Again, just one guy's take on it.

    Also, 1.5 weeks in bottles can be pretty short (though a good learning tool to try one or two). I generally recommend at least 2 weeks; 3 weeks was my minimum. You're doing another fermentation in the bottle and the yeast need time to clean up their flavors.

    Next, you'll see a lot of conflicting opinions but generally a secondary isn't necessary. The following website goes over an "exbeeriment"; that website has changed my opinions on a lot of the advice given and I'd recommend reading as many of their experiments as possible. As always your own results may vary, but I haven't done a secondary in forever. Even when adding fruits or dry hopping I just put it right in the primary once it's finished fermentation.
    http://brulosophy.com/2014/08/12/primary-only-vs-transfer-to-secondary-exbeeriment-results/
     
  8. cearum

    cearum Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2012
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Metro Detroit, MI
    In response to help improve the recipe, here's what I'd do (by no counts is it right or what anyone else would do, but just me).

    • 1. I would kill the addition of the 2-row grains as it's unnecessary. That is unless you're actually doing a partial mash (which you sort of are, but aren't); in that case I'd drop the amount of DME to match the ABV you're looking for.
      2. If you're going for light I'd remove the C60 and keep the C120 for some color.
      3. I don't see any dry hopping, and that can really help your hoppy aromas and add some of the dank character you're after (depending on the hops used, but I can't help so much with that).

    I find this website invaluable for grains http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Malts_Chart
     
  9. jmcnamara

    jmcnamara Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2012
    Messages:
    2,457
    Likes Received:
    1,947
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Rosedale, MD
    That's an interesting experiment and article cearum. However, I'm wondering if cold crashing would negate, void, or otherwise coverup the (perceived or real) benefit of a secondary.
    Also, while I have no experience with fermcap whatsoever, I did notice he had added it to one batch and not the other. I'm no scientist but I'd think that alone would negate the "controlled" aspect of the experiment.
    All that being said, I really dig how every homebrewer seems to do something different, whether it's because of your particular setup or "superstitions", like baseball players or something. But as long as you keep hitting home runs, keep doin what you're doin.
    I now return you to your previously scheduled topic.
    I do agree about dropping the 2row, at the very least I think the other grains / flavors would mask the 2row, in which case it's not really serving a purpose for you.
    Cearum, wouldn't the crystal 120 give a bit of a "heavier" flavor than a lighter crystal? Or does that small of an amount not really contribute much flavor?
     
  10. cearum

    cearum Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2012
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Metro Detroit, MI
    From my experience (which isn't much) that little amount would add a small bit of sweetness and some color, but it could be a bit more sharp which *might* help him get a tad more bite in his recipe (unproven by myself).
     
  11. jmcnamara

    jmcnamara Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2012
    Messages:
    2,457
    Likes Received:
    1,947
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Rosedale, MD
    That's an interesting point, i hadn't thought to do test batches where the amount of an ingredient is changed in each one. Helps to get sensory data on why using 30% crystal is probably a bad idea, rather than just reading about it
     
  12. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    9,407
    Likes Received:
    6,652
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Aurora, CO, USA
    First, what you're calling "secondary" is actually conditioning, the phase where the yeast clean up their by-products, in other words, off-flavors. This phase is necessary - taste your beer immediately following primary then again in a couple of weeks to see what it does for you. Cold crashing - dropping the temperature to drop yeast out of suspension, is not a practice I'd recommend. It shortens that clean-up phase, leaving some of the by-products in the beer. I'd wait until the yeast were clearing on their own before attempting to shock them out of suspension. I've almost eliminated secondary fermentation - racking the yeast from the primary fermenter to a second one - from my process to keep the beer in contact with the yeast longer, the exception being when I'm lagering or conditioning for extended periods.

    Secondary fermentation is what happens after you add sugar back into the beer, for example, at bottling.
     
  13. jmcnamara

    jmcnamara Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2012
    Messages:
    2,457
    Likes Received:
    1,947
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Rosedale, MD
    so if i understand you correctly, cold crashing and conditioning (in a carboy prior to bottling / kegging) are not meant to do the same thing, and may in fact be a bit at odds (getting the yeast out of solution so they don't make more of a mess vs letting the yeast clean up their own mess)
    is that sort of, maybe, close to being right?
     
  14. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    9,407
    Likes Received:
    6,652
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Aurora, CO, USA
    Exactly right, the two serve different purposes. You condition by letting the beer sit at room temperature or slightly cooler to let the beer clean itself up prior to packaging. Lagering is an extreme example of this, Altbiers and Koelsches "lager" at a slightly higher temperature. The point of conditioning is to let the yeast, in their own time and manner, clean up after themselves. Once they're done, cold crashing, dropping the temperature to as near freezing as you can, serves to clarify the beer. There's still yeast in suspension, that's what drives secondary fermentation or carbonation, just not enough to be seen.

    Gern has mentioned this at times, patience is a virtue. If your sanitation processes are good, getting the beer cold should wait until it's mostly cleared on its own, lagers and Rhine-valley ales excepted. You'll get better beer by letting the yeast completely finish their job than by trying to hurry them along.
     
  15. jmcnamara

    jmcnamara Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2012
    Messages:
    2,457
    Likes Received:
    1,947
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Rosedale, MD
    Agreed. That being said, i always open the first bottle of the batch too soon. And i could absolutely not wait long enough for homemade wine to mature
     

Share This Page

arrow_white