Sanitiser contribution to oxidation

[Mark Farrall]

Listening to this podcast - https://beersmith.com/content/controlling-oxygen-in-beer-with-colin-kaminski-beersmith-podcast-293/.

It surprised me to hear that in their canning experiments they found that sanitiser was one of the bigger contributors to dissolved oxygen in the cans. Not the active ingredients in the sanitiser so much, as the tap water that makes up 90 odd percent of the sanitiser. So much that they didn't sanitise the cans. Just purged the cans with CO2. On the few commercial canning lines I've seen I've been surprised there's no sanitiser used, just a UV light and CO2 purge.

He then started to speculate on how he'd change his process if it was homebrew into a keg. He said he'd no longer fill the keg with sanitiser and push the sanitiser out with CO2. Instead he'd just wash, dry, then fill. Once full he'd then purge the headspace a few times. He didn't have any trials of that, he was just speculating based on his canning trials. Though keg conditioning Could be another way to remove the O2. He didn't mention either of the metabisufites, though you'd imagine they'd have a similar effect to keg conditioning.

So I'm no longer sure that the purging the keg is that worth it compared to just purging the head space after filling. Though this approach does open up a slightly larger risk of spoilage from some microbe that can survive in finished beer (of which there are very few).

Any thoughts on the pointlessness of existence? Or at least the purging of kegs using liquids with high amounts of dissolved oxygen?

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

Listening to this podcast - https://beersmith.com/content/controlling-oxygen-in-beer-with-colin-kaminski-beersmith-podcast-293/.

It surprised me to hear that in their canning experiments they found that sanitiser was one of the bigger contributors to dissolved oxygen in the cans. Not the active ingredients in the sanitiser so much, as the tap water that makes up 90 odd percent of the sanitiser. So much that they didn't sanitise the cans. Just purged the cans with CO2. On the few commercial canning lines I've seen I've been surprised there's no sanitiser used, just a UV light and CO2 purge.

He then started to speculate on how he'd change his process if it was homebrew into a keg. He said he'd no longer fill the keg with sanitiser and push the sanitiser out with CO2. Instead he'd just wash, dry, then fill. Once full he'd then purge the headspace a few times. He didn't have any trials of that, he was just speculating based on his canning trials. Though keg conditioning Could be another way to remove the O2. He didn't mention either of the metabisufites, though you'd imagine they'd have a similar effect to keg conditioning.

So I'm no longer sure that the purging the keg is that worth it compared to just purging the head space after filling. Though this approach does open up a slightly larger risk of spoilage from some microbe that can survive in finished beer (of which there are very few).

Any thoughts on the pointlessness of existence? Or at least the purging of kegs using liquids with high amounts of dissolved oxygen?

there is a problem with hoppy beer and oxygen reducing the hop flavor so if brewing that type its worth the research I would guess

 

[Minbari]

Interesting. May have to alter my kegging practice

 

[GFHomebrew]

Listening to this podcast - https://beersmith.com/content/controlling-oxygen-in-beer-with-colin-kaminski-beersmith-podcast-293/.

It surprised me to hear that in their canning experiments they found that sanitiser was one of the bigger contributors to dissolved oxygen in the cans. Not the active ingredients in the sanitiser so much, as the tap water that makes up 90 odd percent of the sanitiser. So much that they didn't sanitise the cans. Just purged the cans with CO2. On the few commercial canning lines I've seen I've been surprised there's no sanitiser used, just a UV light and CO2 purge.

He then started to speculate on how he'd change his process if it was homebrew into a keg. He said he'd no longer fill the keg with sanitiser and push the sanitiser out with CO2. Instead he'd just wash, dry, then fill. Once full he'd then purge the headspace a few times. He didn't have any trials of that, he was just speculating based on his canning trials. Though keg conditioning Could be another way to remove the O2. He didn't mention either of the metabisufites, though you'd imagine they'd have a similar effect to keg conditioning.

So I'm no longer sure that the purging the keg is that worth it compared to just purging the head space after filling. Though this approach does open up a slightly larger risk of spoilage from some microbe that can survive in finished beer (of which there are very few).

Any thoughts on the pointlessness of existence? Or at least the purging of kegs using liquids with high amounts of dissolved oxygen?

Gash slug put me onto filling with water and dosing with Sodium Metabisulphate years ago that will scrub any oxygen outta the water and the vessel and sanitize at the same time.

Now I've gone one step further and put some non foaming 96% phosphoric Acid in just to keep the PH down .

That's another approach ...

 

[Zambi]

So maybe I shouldn't change my process

 

[west1m]

So maybe I shouldn't change my process

Ya know what they say, "If it works, don't fix it"

 

[Bigbre04]

This is a tough one.

If you are using star San or a foamy sanitizer those bubbles are generally full of air not CO2.

PAA(peracetic acid(sp?)) Is what commercial breweries use. It is a non foaming leave in sanitizer. The o2 content that remains in the water portion of the paa is so small that It makes little to no difference to oxidation. There should be very little sanitizer left in the tank or keg, especially compared to the volume of liquid you are adding.

What they are referring to is that the cans go through a twist rinse that sprays them with sanitizer. That sanitizer has much more o2 in it since it was just sprayed into the can. Also the quantity of sanitizer liquid to beer is much higher since the cans hold far less liquid.

All of that being said, the actual o2 pickup from a well run and tuned in canning line is still relatively low. It takes a DO meter to find it.

I have canned 1000s of barrels of ipas with very few oxidation problems. The levels that they are referring to only impact long term shelf-life(90+ days) in big Hazy ipas.

But it is very interesting that using UV and ionized air on well properly stored cans and then co2 purging them is so effective. The biggest advantage for breweries is that it is pretty cheap to setup while also being effective and reducing o2.

I would 100% purge your bottles, kegs, and Cans before using them. Same if you are transferring to secondary. CO2 is very very important!

Sorry for being long winded. I actually recently listed to a brewmasters podcast talking to the folks that figured this out!

 

[Bigbre04]

Gash slug put me onto filling with water and dosing with Sodium Metabisulphate years ago that will scrub any oxygen outta the water and the vessel and sanitize at the same time.

Now I've gone one step further and put some non foaming 96% phosphoric Acid in just to keep the PH down .

That's another approach ...

Do you get any Sulphur from it? I think we chatted about this in the past?

Commercial breweries us PAA but it's really dangerous when concentrated and I don't know that it's even available without going through a specialty supplier. Dosing rates are measured in ppm.

I use 100ml in 10gals of water for cleaning and that is medium to high level.

 

[Minbari]

Do you get any Sulphur from it? I think we chatted about this in the past?

Commercial breweries us PAA but it's really dangerous when concentrated and I don't know that it's even available without going through a specialty supplier. Dosing rates are measured in ppm.

I use 100ml in 10gals of water for cleaning and that is medium to high level.

You can get it on Amazon. Kinda expensive though. 5% solution is $70 a gallon

 

[Bigbre04]

If yall were wondering...

When cleaning a brite tank:
1. we blow down with compressed air to remove the co2.
2. Disassemble/clean parts
3. Rinse/preheat with hot liquor(180+ water).
4. Spin hot(>150f usually closer to 180) caustic.
5. Hot rinse, cool rinse.
6. Spin Acid
7. Rinse cool
8. Spin sanitizer(paa)
9. Close up tank and continue spinning sani
10. Dump sani under co2 pressure
11. Purge with co2 through the transfer hose until it is super spicy coming out of the blow off arm.
12. Add pressure and blow the remaining sani out.
13. Then we generally let it sit for some period of time and before we hook up we blow any remaining sani out of the system and hook up and transfer.

You really have maybe a few ounces of sani water left when you transfer.

 

[Bigbre04]

You can get it on Amazon. Kinda expensive though. 5% solution is $70 a gallon

Ya it's pretty dangerous. You need to be very careful with it. It is evil vinegar lol.

A gallon would last you a long time...I have used about half of a 5gal bucket in the year and change that I have been making beer.

 

[Minbari]

Ya it's pretty dangerous. You need to be very careful with it. It is evil vinegar lol.

A gallon would last you a long time...I have used about half of a 5gal bucket in the year and change that I have been making beer.

Think I will stick with starsan, lol.

I am gonna try the wash, sanitize, then dry and fill in the kegs and see if that helps the hoppy beers.

I have nearly quit making them because they are a pale ale at best in 2 weeks

 

[Bigbre04]

Think I will stick with starsan, lol.

I am gonna try the wash, sanitize, then dry and fill in the kegs and see if that helps the hoppy beers.

I have nearly quit making them because they are a pale ale at best in 2 weeks

Gotta purge! You could probably pre-purge before using starsan and then your bubbles would just be co2!

 

[Minbari]

Gotta purge! You could probably pre-purge before using starsan and then your bubbles would just be co2!

Well ya, I always purge the keg right before filling.

I guess I was referencing the top of this thread, where the sanitizer produces oxygen when wet.

 

[Craigerrr]

Interesting, wouldn't have considered starsan solution being an o2 concern.
Here is my process for sanitizing kegs, after a thorough cleaning, and rinsing.
Fill keg with sanitizer by pushing it from storage keg
Burp a few times to hopefully purge any remaining o2
Transfer back to storage keg, or to next keg if cleaning sanitizing multiple kegs.
I don't get any foam from this process, but a wee bit of sanitizer is left behind.
Is there enough o2 in what is left behind to contribute to oxidization?
The answer is that I have no evidence of that yet.
This is still an interesting theory to consider though.
Hmmm, could my beer be better?
Maybe it isn't broke, but is it bent...

 

[Minbari]

Interesting, wouldn't have considered starsan solution being an o2 concern.
Here is my process for sanitizing kegs, after a thorough cleaning, and rinsing.
Fill keg with sanitizer by pushing it from storage keg
Burp a few times to hopefully purge any remaining o2
Transfer back to storage keg, or to next keg if cleaning sanitizing multiple kegs.
I don't get any foam from this process, but a wee bit of sanitizer is left behind.
Is there enough o2 in what is left behind to contribute to oxidization?
The answer is that I have no evidence of that yet.
This is still an interesting theory to consider though.
Hmmm, could my beer be better?
Maybe it isn't broke, but is it bent...

Also, maybe you don't notice because it always is that way?
I know that really hoppy beers I make don't stay that way more than a few weeks. Willing to try that and see if it makes any difference

 

[Bigbre04]

So purging is not just a little co2.

You need to push co2 out until when you put your nose up to it, it takes your breath away.

Big thing to remember is that your kegs use straws right? So you need to reverse your purge.

Push your co2 from the outlet and relieve the air from the gas valve.

Co2 is heavier then air so the only way to get all of the o2 out is reverse how you fill.

We purge our tanks from the lowest port out the highest port in the tank.

 

[Bigbre04]

A fully purged vessel is spicy enough that when you put your nose up to the vent it takes your breath away. Keep going if it doesn't cause an instant recoil lol.

 

[Donoroto]

So purging is not just a little co2.

You need to push co2 out until when you put your nose up to it, it takes your breath away.

Big thing to remember is that your kegs use straws right? So you need to reverse your purge.

Push your co2 from the outlet and relieve the air from the gas valve.

Co2 is heavier then air so the only way to get all of the o2 out is reverse how you fill.

We purge our tanks from the lowest port out the highest port in the tank.

Fully agree, but the weight difference between air and CO2 is very, very small. And once it mixes, it doesn't un-mix - if it did, the bottom few feet of our world wouldn't support our needs to breathe... Slosh the CO2 even a little and all bets are off.

 

[Bigbre04]

Fully agree, but the weight difference between air and CO2 is very, very small. And once it mixes, it doesn't un-mix - if it did, the bottom few feet of our world wouldn't support our needs to breathe... Slosh the CO2 even a little and all bets are off.

For sure. It takes more co2 then you would think to push out the o2 in a vessel.

Canning lines generally purge for the same amount of time as it takes to fill the can with beer. You adjust the flow rate so that it is not too aggressive or it can hit the bottom of the can and "splash" out or mix with o2.