Safe sour?

Discussion in 'Recipes for Feedback' started by The Brew Mentor, May 21, 2021.

  1. The Brew Mentor

    The Brew Mentor Well-Known Member

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    Not a big fan of sours, but I'm getting requests to brew one.
    I'm not looking to infect anything in my brewhaus so thinking more along the lines of a beer with lallemand sour pitch.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. The Brew Mentor

    The Brew Mentor Well-Known Member

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    Thinking raspberries would work well with this
     
  3. Trialben

    Trialben Well-Known Member

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    I'm no sour brewer but kettle souring seems like a safe approach. Mashing your wort then cooling down to Lacto temp 40~c then holding temp for 24-36hours until (3.something PH) is reached then bring up to a boil and continue as per usual.

    Not sure what ph your aiming for in the sour mash though.

    Souring then boiling in the kettle would mitigate the contamination to brew hoses ect.

    But I'm not sure if that's achievable on your scale?
     
  4. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    That works. Kettle souring is also an option.
     
  5. Donoroto

    Donoroto Well-Known Member

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    A local brewery brews many sours. I once had an IPA that had a sour undertaste, wasn't a fan. I speculate the fermenter or bright tank wasn't properly cleaned and contaminated the batch, as you rightly fear.

    They said some of their equipment is dedicated to sours only.

    Regardless of the souring process, a little extra cleaning might be advised. Surely cannot hurt.
     
  6. Hawkbox

    Hawkbox Well-Known Member

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    I just made a sour with Philly Sour, it was a mild sour not as biting as my kettle sour attempts but I think it's going to be good. Added raspberries.

    Super simple recipe with only 2-row, 5g of CTZ at 60 minutes, 15 minute boil, yeast pitched at 20C. I added raspberries after 2 weeks in the fermenter.
     
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  7. Megary

    Megary Well-Known Member

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    Please keep us posted on the final outcome. The Philly Sour yeast is on my list of things to try. A "mild" sour sounds like something I would enjoy.
    Was using that yeast as simple as most yeasts are? Any special considerations? Any strange signs during fermentation?
     
  8. Hawkbox

    Hawkbox Well-Known Member

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    I just opened the pack and dumped it in. It makes a comment about not reusing it as it's not a fast fermenter but I haven't tested that yet. I didn't notice anything interesting in fermentation. It finished around 1.007 which is pretty low compared to where I usually finish.
     
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  9. Mark Farrall

    Mark Farrall Well-Known Member

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    We've being drinking our Philly Sour NEIPA for a few weeks now. It's interesting. Medium sour, big mouthfeel and a faint disconcerting twang that I can't tell if it's the hops, yeast or a brewing fault (or an interaction of any of these).

    I won't be using it again and that's not just because of the strange twang. It's really slow to get to terminal. It took around 10 days to do 90% of the gravity drop. It then spent two weeks making incremental drops before I just gave up and kegged it. A kettle sour is a much simpler brew process than this one and there's more control over how sour you want it. The kettle sour is cleaner, but without the big mouthfeel.
     
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  10. Mark Farrall

    Mark Farrall Well-Known Member

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    I listened to someone talking about the repitching potential. They said it's certainly possible, but the pitch rate is a real pain in the arse. The sourness can be greatly affected by the pitch rate. Under pitch slightly, not much sour, overpitch slightly, not much sour. So if you've got really good control over your repitching you can make it work, but that's not many people when you consider how fussy it is.
     
  11. The Brew Mentor

    The Brew Mentor Well-Known Member

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    Well after a bit of research, the 1st batch will be a Berliner weiss and the fruit infused at serving.
    The process will be to mash as usual, then sparge to BK and bring to boil for 5-10 minutes.
    Then I'll cool to pitching temp for the philly sour.
    Acidify with lactic to~4.4 oh.
    Pitch and hold temp for 1-2 days until I reach ~3.3 pH.
    Then boil and hop as needed for the Weiss.
    Cool and pitch a healthy Cali ale yeast.
    This should keep everything safe in the brewery.
    Thoughts
     
  12. The Brew Mentor

    The Brew Mentor Well-Known Member

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    #12 The Brew Mentor, May 31, 2021
    Last edited: May 31, 2021
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  13. Donoroto

    Donoroto Well-Known Member

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    I like the process, virtually guaranteeing no contamination of other beers in the house. Just be sure to sterilize (not just sanitize) everything the bacteria touches! Alternative, mark stuff you cannot sterilize and only use it for sours. I sense Iodophor in your future.
     
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  14. The Brew Mentor

    The Brew Mentor Well-Known Member

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    Honestly, the brew kettle is the only thing and that's going to boil for an hour, so no issues.
     
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  15. The Brew Mentor

    The Brew Mentor Well-Known Member

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    With this philly sour, my only concern at all is if it could become airborne.
    I haven't found anything on that yet, but feeling pretty safe.
     
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  16. Mark Farrall

    Mark Farrall Well-Known Member

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    #16 Mark Farrall, Jun 2, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2021
    Philly sour isn't a lactobacillus. It's like a Sacch yeast that you just ferment at the recommended temp until it hits terminal. The Sour Pitch is the one that fits the steps you've got here.

    If you're planning to use the Philly Sour you won't need to pre-acidify and you won't need the Cali ale yeast pitch. Philly Sour is also pretty slow and is easily outcompeted by Sacch. Cervesiae, so is very unlikely to change a beer if there is any cross contamination.

    The Sour Pitch product is a Lactobacillus Plantarum, not one of the harder lactobacillus to kill. And with a standard kettle sour approach it shouldn't get airborne. It should only be in the kettle and then it's dead before you bring it to the boil. So as long as it's only in the kettle it's pretty easy to control.
     
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  17. The Brew Mentor

    The Brew Mentor Well-Known Member

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    Thanks mark, did you see the kettle souring recommendation process guide from lallemand that I linked?
    That's where I settled on the process.
    If all goes well next week, I'll likely brew it on Thursday and pitch it on Saturday.
    Cheers!
    Brian
     
  18. Mark Farrall

    Mark Farrall Well-Known Member

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    Just had a look. It should work well.
     
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  19. Hawkbox

    Hawkbox Well-Known Member

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    Just kegged mine yesterday, finished around 1.006 which is lower than I'm used to. We'll see how it tastes in a few days.
     
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  20. naDinMN

    naDinMN Member

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    Recent studies have shown us with proper sanitation, wild yeast and bacteria are no harder to kill off than domesticated yeasts. Think about it, both are everywhere. There are some on your unused fermenters right now. Of we couldn't kill them off, we'd never have non-soured beers.

    Anyway, I'm a traditionalist and I do years long wild sours. That being said, I'm loving Philly Sour as a quick turn for Berliners and whatnot.
     
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