Rothaus Tannenzäpfle, No Bittering Hops Pilz

[Dornbox]

So some of you may know this beer but for those that dont:

• Tannenzäpfle Pils – Tannenzäpfle is made from the finest, all-natural ingredients Germany has to offer:
  • Water sourced from 7 natural springs in the heart of the Black Forest.
  • Malted barley from the Highlands and Valleys of the Black Forest.

• Aroma hops from the Tettnang and Hallertau areas next to the Black Forest.

• The yeast is cultivated at the brewery and is exclusively used in Rothaus beers.

• No bitter hops are ever added to Tannenzäpfle Pilz and no other ingredients are used in brewing this deliciously refreshing Pilsner.

It's freaking simple and delicious. I have a sneaky suspicion that it's flavor is all technique and biotransformation from thoilized yeast. My question is though, do you think a pilz can be crisp, clear, and clean with no bittering addions just IBUs from late additions?

I would love to clone this beer, sure, but I'm really interested in learning how to make similar magic happen. With the new strains of Thoilized Lager Yeasts, hops like Jarrylo, and thoil boosting adjuncts like phantasm, I think it's all just a commercialization of what Rothaus tapped into many years ago.... But I could just be crazy.

In the next couple weeks I'd like to do a all pils base malt with zero bittering additions, boil it for 4 hours like a faux decoction maillard flavor replacement thing, then load in the last 15 to 20 minutes with a blend of Hallertau hops and a touch of tettnag right through whirlpool then dry hop it at high krausen while fermenting it with Omega's Lunar Crush Biotransformation Lager yeast... or maybe a blend of Lunar Crush and a traditional Oktoberfest yeast.... My only hang up is that I really don't want another cloudy thing on tap. I need something clear and crisp. I need a beer mans beer on tap and I don't want to waste a day and a bunch of ingredients.

Talk me off the ledge or push me over it with pearls of wisdom. I'd love to hear from people that make NEIPAs, dry hop pilsners, etc and help me figure out if this thing can be a crisp clear clean pilsner esq brew or would I end up with a glass of herbal tasting orange juice?

Thanks in advance!

(UPDATE) interesting fun fact. I’ve come to expect a fair amount of batch variation from this beer but over the last year since I’ve first started drinking it, I’ve noticed that it’s been getting dryer and dryer. Not sure if it’s a Covid side effect wearing off or actual batch variation but now with the 6 pack I just purchased, what I’m getting from it is way dryer than what I’ve come to expect and I’m tasting a white wine note from what I’m assuming is Hallertau Blanc like never before. @HighVoltageMan! may be on to something with the 148-149 mash temp as well. I’ll have to go read a bunch of beer reviews now to see what it is. Lol.

 

[Minbari]

would be interested to see how this turns out.

without some experimenting and techniques that are unknown to me, I would think with no bittering hops, it will be sweet. not necessarily bad, but sweeter.

 

[Dornbox]

Agreed in principle but Rothaus seemingly pulled it off somehow. It's remarkably balanced at 5% abv with a reported 32 IBUs. This weekend I'll play around with the recipe builder and see what I can come up with.

 

[Minbari]

does it use alot of hops during the 20 minute time? I would think it would have to, to get nearly 40 IBU in 20 minutes. I am still intrigued by this. wonder what beer with zero isomerized hops would be like.

 

[Donoroto]

Clear beer: at least two practical methods:

Finings, like whirlfloc
Time, like a lager

There are other ways, but I can't say filtering is practical at the homebrew scale.

I regularly put up fairly clear beer using whirlfloc, and let it sit 3-10 weeks in the keg, and it comes out commercial clear. 8 out if 10 tries, and only styles i want clear. A hefeweitzen, of course, is purposely cloudy.

 

[Ward Chillington]

I was wondering why the name rang a bell

There's a recipe on the data base here ...check the comments at the bottom, they might help get you pointed in the right "how to " direction.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/1114409/rothaus-tannenzaepfle-clone

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

I have a sneaky suspicion that it's flavor is all technique and biotransformation from thoilized yeast.

This beer is not for the faint of heart if you really want to nail it. Lager beers are often so simple, it comes down to technique, especially lighter beers like Pils. The ingredients should be as fresh as you can get them. Your brewing skills will determine how good this will be. Do research and if the first version doesn't work, keep trying.

Your mash has to be spot on. It should be mashed low (145-149F) and you should have a firm handle on pH throughout the process. In the end pitch pH should be 5.1-5.2. Your water needs to be very soft. Fermentation is going to bring out the all those fresh ingredients, over pitch and push the yeast to it's lowest temperature it can take. If you can, ferment @ 4-5 psi @ 46-48F. Over pitch this beer. 34/70 is a good yeast for this beer because it can be very forgiving, even if it's not in a perfect conditions.

The idea of late hop additions to the boil are all about bring out the aroma/flavor of the Tettnang and Hallertau. Not all German Pils are highly bittered, so a I would expect a softer bitterness from the late additions. Like most German beers, it should be well balanced and subtle. I doubt biotransformation has much to do with beer. Noble hops are more about floral and delicate aromas/flavors.

Sorry, I tend to geek out on lagers. I love that $h!+.

 

[Dornbox]

@Ward Chillington

Nice coaster!

I love this beer and I’m lucky enough to live in an area where it’s fairly easy to get. In fact I picked up a 6 pack of it and their Eis Zapfle today on my way home from the hospital. Lol my wife thinks I’m nuts but loves me anyway.

I’ve been surfing BF and other sites for clones but dismiss them as they all have 60 minute additions which tells me they’re just brewing Pilsners. This lady is different.

@HighVoltageMan!

Thanks for the PH pointers! I was thinking the PH needed to be 5.3 or lower but not 5.1.. I’m pretty sure I read a post a while back where someone pulled a PH off of a de gassed sample. I’ll have to dig that one back up. Do you know if the carbonic acid would have much affect on my reading if I did the same?

She’s no typical Pilsner and definitely has more body than your average bear. I was thinking 151 for a final mash temp after a gradual rise from a 120 strike temp. I have a RIMS but I always feel like my beer will be long converted by the time I reach my final rest temp if I do multiple rests in between, but maybe that’s just me. I also do overnight mashes while recirculating for time savings the next day and crystal clear wort. I’m Weird that way.

I’ve gotten fairly comfortable with the Lager yeast and spunding over the last year but with the whole lowDO aspect I’ve been avoiding decoctions. I haven't pulled one on at least 15 years either. I was listening to a podcast interview with a well known Lager brewer in Spokane WA who’s won a few awards for their Pilsners and German Lagers. He mentioned that they cant do decoctions with their brewery but he replaces them with a 4 hour boil. I’ve also been trying to dial in an Oktoberfest and I know that the specialty malts haven’t been cutting it for a replacement so I figured that I’ll try the 4 hour boil on this one and see what happens. Have you ever tried anything like that?

As for the 24/70 I’ve used it in the past but I think it’s too clean for this one but maybe it’s just me? I’m m going to Use Barke as my base Pilsner so maybe that combined with a lower PH might provide some of that special sauce flavor I’ve been looking for.

Oh! And my well water is silly soft!

Thanks!

 

[Ward Chillington]

Nice coaster

Lol..yeah. got it in Montpelier Vt on summer vacation this year...great story...a rep from Zero Gravity was at the bar and offered to pay my tab if I bought their beer ...oh...oh...twist my arm! Anyhow....They were using these coasters! ZeroG's Pilsner......good stuff!

 

[Dornbox]

Lol..yeah. got it in Montpelier Vt on summer vacation this year...great story...a rep from Zero Gravity was at the bar and offered to pay my tab if I bought their beer ...oh...oh...twist my arm! Anyhow....They were using these coasters! ZeroG's Pilsner......good stuff!

Love the story! We have Zero G here. I’ve only had one of their beers that was OK and we since we have soooooo many NE breweries available here I moved on. I’ll have to look for their pils.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

Thanks for the PH pointers! I was thinking the PH needed to be 5.3 or lower but not 5.1.. I’m pretty sure I read a post a while back where someone pulled a PH off of a de gassed sample. I’ll have to dig that one back up. Do you know if the carbonic acid would have much affect on my reading if I did the same?

5.1-5.2 pH is at pitching. The yeast will drop the pH as it ferments to a final pH of 4.2-4.3 by excreting acids. Pitching at 5.1 or makes it an easier time for the yeast. The carbonic acid doesn't come into play until the beer has a significant amount of dissolved carbon dioxide and even then it isn't a major factor in the pH, maybe .1 or so. If you are going to read the pH after the beer is carb'd, you would need to de-gas it because carbon dioxide interferes with the pH probe.

She’s no typical Pilsner and definitely has more body than your average bear. I was thinking 151 for a final mash temp after a gradual rise from a 120 strike temp. I have a RIMS but I always feel like my beer will be long converted by the time I reach my final rest temp if I do multiple rests in between, but maybe that’s just me. I also do overnight mashes while recirculating for time savings the next day and crystal clear wort. I’m Weird that way.

If you have a RIMS, this makes the mash a whole lot easier. I wouldn't bother with a protein rest or even a decoction. Mash in at 145F for a dryer beer or at 152F for a little more body. Hold for an 60 to 90 and raise it to 158F for 15 minutes, then a mash out. The steps will help with a more complete extraction and some believe the higher temperature rests build body (maybe). In my mind, the choice of grain has a huge impact on mouth feel. Typically, German beers are well attenuated but still have a lot of malt flavor and a heavier mouth feel.

Decoction mashes are a lot of work and I have not done one in years. The biggest thing I noticed was that it made the beer darker. If you want to pick up some melanoidins, add 20% Vienna malt or add 3% or so of aromatic malt. I have given up on melanoidin malt because I hate the flavor from it. Many Germans brewers swear by decoction and other German brewers have said it not necessary. I personally believe it has very little impact on the flavor. The last year or so I have switched to single malt in my Pils, it has a nice, simple but elegant flavor. It lets the hops shine.

I figured that I’ll try the 4 hour boil on this one and see what happens. Have you ever tried anything like that?

Yes. It makes the beers darker and denatures foam forming proteins. I'm convinced it doesn't work. I believe LODO has a bigger impact than anything. Oxidation in the mash is real but how much of an impact it has is still up for debate. I think it has a impact, but it not as obvious as I would have hoped it to be. 80-90 minute boils work best, IMHO.

As for the 24/70 I’ve used it in the past but I think it’s too clean for this one but maybe it’s just me? I’m m going to Use Barke as my base Pilsner so maybe that combined with a lower PH might provide some of that special sauce flavor I’ve been looking for.

Fermentation is critical when brewing lagers, especially German lagers. 34/70 (dry) is a great yeast, but I have to put it under about 4-5psi to eliminate the lemon flavor it kicks out. Even at 48F that yeast can produce esters. I have switched to 34/70 for my German Pils and the beer is fantastic. It's malty, clean and finishes dry. The other yeast that works really well is Wyeast 2124. It's a little more malty and not quite as dry, but it's really good too. 2124 will produce a white wine/white grape, even at 48F. I fermented a German Pils with 2124 under pressure (4-7psi) at 48F and I got rid of the flavor. The beer was excellent and went on to win 2nd BOS in Milwaukee.

You can't go wrong with Weyermann malt. Barke is an excellent choice. I prefer Weyermann Pils, but I have also gotten very good results with Barke.

I'm sorry if I'm a little long winded, but I have brewed many German Pils, they are my favorite beer. I have also experimented with a lot of different malts, yeasts and hops. My favorite beers were the simplest. Weyermann Pils, Tettnang and Hallertua hops, German yeast and soft water. The beers are sublime and I win a lot of medals from them to boot.

Good luck! Sounds like a great beer. Let us know how it comes out.

 

[Dornbox]

@HighVoltageMan! thats not long winded, that’s knowledge and experience! Lol. It’s also greatly appreciated. I’ve been down the melanoidins route and after I accidentally doubled it in a recipe. As a result I realized it wasn’t a flavor that I appreciated at all
So I stopped using it entirely.

Barke and Halcyon are what I have on hand so Barke it is. I also have some Omega OYL 114 Bayern Lager and Mega OYL403 Lunar Crush so I think I’ll go for a double batch. Batch. 1 I’ll brew for something along the lines of the Rothaus using the OYL114. Batch 2 I think I’ll add some phantasm and dryhop it with Jarrylo using the OYL403. Mash PH will be sub 5.2 and I won’t add anything to my water keeping is super soft with a boil time around 90 min. Hops will be all late additions consisting of a blend of Hallertau’s and some Tetnang. Both will be spunded with a low pressure post kick off at around 50° or less with a ramp up to 64° or higher for a diacetyl rest. Once fermentation is completed, I’ll dump the yeast and drop them down to 34° for 3 weeks lagering. Then I’ll keg, fine, and carb… and report back. All this means I’ll be tying up both uni tanks into late fall early winter. Lol. Hopefully I’ll have enough time to brew a winter ale! Thanks for the input!