Off flavors kegging?

Discussion in 'General Brewing Discussions' started by Jhogan0101, Nov 24, 2019.

  1. Jhogan0101

    Jhogan0101 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2019
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Philadelphia
    Hey everyone, new to this. I have 4 beers i kegged about a month ago and they all are getting off flavors now like they are oxidizing. Anyone know why? I have constant CO2 on them, when trans from fermentation i used a long tube from fermenter spout and was simultaneously pumping co2 into the kegs while transferring.
     
  2. thunderwagn

    thunderwagn Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2015
    Messages:
    3,745
    Likes Received:
    7,282
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Loveland, CO
    Were any of these beers the ones with the aquarium heater and aquarium pump installed inside the fermenter by chance?
     
  3. Jhogan0101

    Jhogan0101 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2019
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Philadelphia
    No, that was the hefeweizen and is still good Received a lot of compliments on that beer (to your dismay?) and will be making my next batch the same way.
     
    Trialben likes this.
  4. HighVoltageMan!

    HighVoltageMan! Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2015
    Messages:
    833
    Likes Received:
    814
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Big Lake MN
    #4 HighVoltageMan!, Nov 25, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
    Oxygen ingress is a common problem for homebrewers and pros as well. A lot homebrewers either ignore it or are unaware it’s a problem. Pros fight it constantly.

    Kegs need to be filled with a liquid, starsan solution, and force this liquid out with cO2. This will give a fully purge keg with the lowest possible oxygen levels in a homebrew environment. The receiving keg is vented through an airlock, a vent tube from the gas post to a beer bottle filled with water. The beer is forced with cO2 from one keg or fermenter to the receiving keg without any contact whatsoever with air. It’s tough to develop a procedure, but once you do, it becomes routine.

    Oxygen ingress is a problem once the yeast is pitch, pay attention to each step so it can be avoided.

    Hefeweizen has a lot of suspended yeast which is a natural antioxidant, without yeast oxygen takes its toll.
     
    Hopfunk and thunderwagn like this.
  5. Jhogan0101

    Jhogan0101 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2019
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Philadelphia
    Great info thanks
     
  6. Hawkbox

    Hawkbox Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2017
    Messages:
    3,746
    Likes Received:
    2,977
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    IT Manager
    Location:
    Edmonton
    They don't "need" to be. It's not bad to do so but I've kegged over 100 batches and most than one of them was gold medal winning.
     
    Trialben likes this.
  7. HighVoltageMan!

    HighVoltageMan! Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2015
    Messages:
    833
    Likes Received:
    814
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Big Lake MN
    True. But in order to reduce the oxygen level to you get from pushing out a liquid you would need to purge the keg 30 times by some estimations. This method is easy and very effective, plus it saves on co2. Since I've switch to this method, my hoppy beers remain fresher longer, my lagers are brighter and crisper longer. I have also won many awards doing the old way with an auto-siphon, but to me, this method is a great improvement. It comes down to what ever works for you, works for you.

    BTW, the acceptable oxygen levels in a package beer from a brewery is under 50ppb. That's a crazy low number, so I'm trying to incorporate things into my process that get me closer to those oxygen levels. Doubt I ever get there, but I'll try.
     
  8. Trialben

    Trialben Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2016
    Messages:
    9,440
    Likes Received:
    9,507
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Pest control tech
    Location:
    Palmwoods QLD
    Can you fill me I'm trying to comprehend what 50ppb of oxygen is? What would be the average 02 ingress on an ordinary homebrewers final kegged beer be I wonder without any extravagant o2 inhabiting hardware.

    I've personally been fully purging phosphoric acid out of recieving keg with fermentation co2 the last few batches. Bar the one I burnt man they have all been tasting bloody fresh as a daisy
    Hey and remember there is metabisulphate @OP what us homebrewers may wish to use to scrub oxygen in the final product...:rolleyes: them big 50ppb brewers cant useo_O.
     
  9. HighVoltageMan!

    HighVoltageMan! Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2015
    Messages:
    833
    Likes Received:
    814
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Big Lake MN
    The test for final oxygen ingress is done after bottling. Sierra Nevada had a presentation at the 2018 AHA convention where they bottled a beer from one of their kegs using a Blichman Beer Gun. They had to test the beer in their lab by piercing the bottle cap with a needle with test equipment they use for their quality control. They found levels varying from 20ppb to 500ppb. They could not explain why there was such a wide variant in their findings. The bottom line was that anything above 50ppb would cause sharp bitterness and sweetness in the finished beer. Without sending home brew to a lab there is no way for home brewers to know what level of oxygen ingress actually is, so I just do everything I can to avoid anything that may cause ingress to occur. I do know since I have been getting anal about oxygen, my beers have gotten better. What my oxygen levels in my beer are, I have no i idea. I need a million dollar lab to know for sure. As of now, my wife would say no f&%king way! So I go on guessing.
     
    Trialben likes this.
  10. Trialben

    Trialben Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2016
    Messages:
    9,440
    Likes Received:
    9,507
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Pest control tech
    Location:
    Palmwoods QLD
    Have you tried Meta by any chance I'm half keen to dose my next kegged beer with like a gram of this stuff and taste test any change form norm.
     
  11. Hawkbox

    Hawkbox Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2017
    Messages:
    3,746
    Likes Received:
    2,977
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    IT Manager
    Location:
    Edmonton
    What that tells me is if Sierra Nevada can't keep their levels below 50ppb then what hope do I have and why should I worry about it? I would like to see the actual science saying >50ppb causes the problems stated because clearly even pro breweries can't control that effectively.
     
    Vesparados and Mase like this.
  12. HighVoltageMan!

    HighVoltageMan! Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2015
    Messages:
    833
    Likes Received:
    814
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Big Lake MN
    #12 HighVoltageMan!, Nov 29, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2019
    Sierra Nevada keeps production levels below 35ppb in the package (bottles), keg levels are even lower. If it’s above that they have a serious problem.

    The presentation was about using a Blichmann gun to bottle beer to see if they could hit the low levels in a home brew setting. They weren’t being caution about, and bottled it maybe even a little sloppy.The conclusion was it was possible to bottle and have really low oxygen ingress in homebrew beer. They also passed out examples of beer with slightly elevate levels of oxygen. The difference was not hard to point out. The two beers were identical except for the oxygen levels(I think it was their pale ale or torpedo IPA). One was below 35ppb and the other was over 100ppb. The high level had sharper bitterness, reduced hop character and a unpleasant sweetness.

    The bottom line it that it is possible, some were at 35ppb, which surprised them. They thought if they flushed the bottles better and were careful they could hit those numbers regularly. The big thing they tried to impress on people was to cap on foam. There should be some foam leaving the bottle when capped. It opened my eyes for sure.

    Edit: The brewery that did the test was actually New Belgian brewery out of Fort Collins, CO.
     
    tootall likes this.
  13. HighVoltageMan!

    HighVoltageMan! Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2015
    Messages:
    833
    Likes Received:
    814
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Big Lake MN
    Yes. I think it helps, but I don’t use it normally. I don’t think it will help with poor handling of beer, but it does seem to help with hoppy beers that are handled well.
     
    Trialben likes this.
  14. HighVoltageMan!

    HighVoltageMan! Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2015
    Messages:
    833
    Likes Received:
    814
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Big Lake MN
    Sorry Hawk but I forgot to answer your question. Below is is a company that sells dissolved oxygen measuring equipment.It's an article on how to measure DO levels in beer. It lists the varying levels commonly acceptable in the brewing industry.

    https://www.hach.com/cms-portals/ha...df/LIT2149-how-to-measure-DO-in-a-brewery.pdf

    In wort 8 – 17+ ppm
    Fermentation < 10 ppb
    Bright beer after filtration 10 – 50 ppb
    Package dissolved O2 (bottle) 20 –50 ppb
    Package dissolved O2 (can) 30 – 60 ppb

    These are some pretty tough numbers to hit and each brewery sets their own goal based on their abilities. But the science behind oxygen as a staling agent is very well established, the lower the level the longer the beer will keep. The higher the level, the quicker it stales, if the levels are high enough it could take only a couple of days. Open a bottle of wine, taste it after a few days after it's been re-corked, it's not the same wine it was when it was opened. Beer is just as vulnerable.
     
    Trialben likes this.
  15. BOB357

    BOB357 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2018
    Messages:
    3,987
    Likes Received:
    7,295
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Fallon, Nevada
    I'll go with my results over the past 7 years of kegging my brews. Like may other home brewers, I'm careful to avoid splashing during my transfers and sometimes purge kegs before filling. I've never had any of the problems ascribed to oxygen introduced after pitching.

    While I do agree that on a commercial level, it is of the utmost importance, I think much of the fuss, for the most part, is beyond what's necessary for most homebrewers, especially those of us who keg our beer. As a rule, our beers are consumed faster than these problems can manifest to a discernable degree. There are exceptions, like NEIPAs and very delicate beers, but I don't brew either.
     
  16. BOB357

    BOB357 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2018
    Messages:
    3,987
    Likes Received:
    7,295
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Fallon, Nevada
    I'll go with my results over the past 7 years of kegging my brews. Like may other home brewers, I'm careful to avoid splashing during my transfers and always purge the head space several times after filling. I've never had any of the problems ascribed to oxygen introduced after pitching.

    While I do agree that on a commercial level, it is of the utmost importance, I think much of the fuss, for the most part, is beyond what's necessary for many homebrewers, especially those of us who keg our beer. As a rule, our beers are consumed faster than these problems can manifest to a discernable degree. There are exceptions, like NEIPAs and very delicate beers, but I don't brew either.
     
  17. BOB357

    BOB357 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2018
    Messages:
    3,987
    Likes Received:
    7,295
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Fallon, Nevada
    I'll go with my results over the past 7 years of kegging my brews. Like may other home brewers, I'm careful to avoid splashing during my transfers and always purge the head space several times after filling. I've never had any of the problems ascribed to oxygen introduced after pitching.

    While I do agree that on a commercial level, it is of the utmost importance, I think much of the fuss, for the most part, is beyond what's necessary for many homebrewers, especially those of us who keg our beer. As a rule, our beers are consumed faster than these problems can manifest to a discernable degree. There are exceptions, like NEIPAs and very delicate beers, but I don't brew either.
     
  18. Mase

    Mase Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2017
    Messages:
    1,772
    Likes Received:
    2,116
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Amen Bob! But did you have to say it 3 times? :D
     
  19. BOB357

    BOB357 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2018
    Messages:
    3,987
    Likes Received:
    7,295
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Fallon, Nevada
    That's it. This mouse is done. Cleaning it helped, but it's finished.
     
    Head First and Craigerrr like this.
  20. HashSlinger

    HashSlinger New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2015
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Northern Sonoma County
    Just curious. Did you purge the kegs after sealing them up? Also I have read that CO2 tanks can be contaminated with small amounts of Oxygen, maybe try a different vendor.
     
    Mase and Ozarks Mountain Brew like this.

Share This Page

arrow_white