Non Bitter Porter or Stout Recipes?

[Dornbox]

So I haven't brewed a porter or non imperial Russian stout in over 20 years. While I can enjoy the occasional pour of an good example, a couple times a year, I often get turned off by beers that have that roasty bitterness. Especially when I'm not expecting it. In fact I'll often dump the beer and move on to something else when this happens. It often pops up in anything lightly brown and darker around New England.

So! I've heard the Genus guys talk about clean Porters and Stouts being brewed without the roasty bitterness across the pond and by home brewers here using "debittered" grains and other adjuncts besides black patent and such and it's intrigued me. I have looked for some examples but really have no idea when it comes to dark roasts which are bitter and which are not. My experience has been mostly Belgian, Imperial bombs, PAs and IPAs.

Can anyone here point me to a recipe for a solid lower ABV porter or stout that is not roasty bitter or sweet or discuss the appropriate grains and adjuncts to create such a beast? The closest thing I can think of is something like Kostriker Schwartz Lager. It's dark, smooth, and very quaffable. I'd like to take that idea but get it into a porter or stout range.

Thanks!

 

[Sunfire96]

So I haven't brewed a porter or non imperial Russian stout in over 20 years. While I can enjoy the occasional pour of an good example, a couple times a year, I often get turned off by beers that have that roasty bitterness. Especially when I'm not expecting it. In fact I'll often dump the beer and move on to something else when this happens. It often pops up in anything lightly brown and darker around New England.

So! I've heard the Genus guys talk about clean Porters and Stouts being brewed without the roasty bitterness across the pond and by home brewers here using "debittered" grains and other adjuncts besides black patent and such and it's intrigued me. I have looked for some examples but really have no idea when it comes to dark roasts which are bitter and which are not. My experience has been mostly Belgian, Imperial bombs, PAs and IPAs.

Can anyone here point me to a recipe for a solid lower ABV porter or stout that is not roasty bitter or sweet or discuss the appropriate grains and adjuncts to create such a beast? The closest thing I can think of is something like Kostriker Schwartz Lager. It's dark, smooth, and very quaffable. I'd like to take that idea but get it into a porter or stout range.

Thanks!

I was going to suggest a dark lager, but I see that's not quite what you're going for I'll sit back and wait for the more experienced brewers to chime in

 

[Dornbox]

I was going to suggest a dark lager, but I see that's not quite what you're going for I'll sit back and wait for the more experienced brewers to chime in

I definitely want something more robust than the lager and I would love to have it ready to drink in a few weeks. I suppose I could start with a Kostriker Clone and make it an ale but as this will likely be the last brew of my season (everything here will be frozen solid soon) I'd hate to waste a brew day making something that was... meh. Plus the lager doesn't have that dark beer winter feeling. I can drink that stuff all summer long!

 

[Donoroto]

Possibly a modified brown ale with a little extra 'dark' in it. Malty, not bitter, yet robust.

 

[Megary]

It sounds to me like you might be after something like this:

English-Style Brown Porter - CraftBeer.com

I think you want to avoid Roasted Barley for sure, as that can add a strong coffee/roastiness that can come across as bitter. Dark caramel malts, chocolate malts, Munich, maybe even Brown malt to help get you there. Maybe package with a bit of vanilla extract to smooth it out even further??

A classic, in my opinion:

London Porter; Capturing the Beauty of Pre-Victorian London - Fuller's (fullers.co.uk)

Good luck and definitely keep us posted!

 

[Dornbox]

It sounds to me like you might be after something like this:

English-Style Brown Porter - CraftBeer.com

I think you want to avoid Roasted Barley for sure, as that can add a strong coffee/roastiness that can come across as bitter. Dark caramel malts, chocolate malts, Munich, maybe even Brown malt to help get you there. Maybe package with a bit of vanilla extract to smooth it out even further??

A classic, in my opinion:

London Porter; Capturing the Beauty of Pre-Victorian London - Fuller's (fullers.co.uk)

Good luck and definitely keep us posted!

Thanks! The Fuller's London Porter page is making me drool! Lol. Unfortunately it looks like it's currently un available in my area do to stocking issues. Might start digging in to that one a little more though. Both descriptions you sent sound spot on.

 

[Nosybear]

Try capping your mash with the dark grains. Do your mash without them, then add them to the sparge. I batch sparge but it works when fly sparging, too.

 

[Dornbox]

So everything is already converted and by limiting the time in the mash of the specialty roasted grains you pull less of the burnt roast flavor?

I’m also still trying to figure out what these debittered grains are too. Hmmm

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

So everything is already converted and by limiting the time in the mash of the specialty roasted grains you pull less of the burnt roast flavor?

I’m also still trying to figure out what these debittered grains are too. Hmmm

debittered grains have no husks so they are debittered but leave a bunch of trub behind

 

[Dornbox]

debittered grains have no husks so they are debittered but leave a bunch of trub behind

So do you need to add rice hulls to the mash … or should you if you get over a certain percentage? Or should you never get high enough %age wise to have to worry about it? Thanks!

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

So do you need to add rice hulls to the mash … or should you if you get over a certain percentage? Or should you never get high enough %age wise to have to worry about it? Thanks!

usually you never get high enough %age wise to have to worry about it?, I never have, the trub sometimes ends up in the boil, just have to settle it a bit before transferring

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

as I mentioned once before you can grind your roasted barely into a powder then add it to the mash with 5 minutes left, there will be no harsh flavors

 

[Mark Farrall]

I'm a +1 on Nosybear's recommendation. I'm the opposite of your taste, I love the dark roasted flavours. I've tried the same beer with the roasted grains added at the start of the mash and the other where they were added near the end of the mash. It made an obvious difference to the roast flavours for me and majority of the tasters at the beer conference.

And this brings it up to two data points: https://brulosophy.com/2015/11/30/r...h-vs-capped-at-vorlauf-exbeeriment-results-2/

Or three with Ozarks comments as well.

 

[Dornbox]

I'm a +1 on Nosybear's recommendation. I'm the opposite of your taste, I love the dark roasted flavours. I've tried the same beer with the roasted grains added at the start of the mash and the other where they were added near the end of the mash. It made an obvious difference to the roast flavours for me and majority of the tasters at the beer conference.

And this brings it up to two data points: https://brulosophy.com/2015/11/30/r...h-vs-capped-at-vorlauf-exbeeriment-results-2/

Or three with Ozarks comments as well.

The xBmt was interesting. The one thing I didn't like was the resulting perceived lack of fullness. I wonder if I chose a recipe with a fair amount of crystal, mashed higher say 152-154 and kept mh PH higher around 5.4 if the resulting brew would be more balanced and what I'm looking for? I'm also now hung up on that Fuller's London Porter that @Megary linked.

Any opinions on this recipe with the parameters above?
8.5 - 9lb 2Row
1 1/2 lb Crystal 60-70
1 lb Chocolate or Light Chocolate
1 lb wheat or maybe midnight wheat
4oz Carafa II or Carafa Special II

IBU 20-25 with 60/30/Flameout additions... Fuggles Maybe
Saf-04 Yeast
Final Kettle Volume 6 gal @ 75-80% mash efficiency

 

[Mark Farrall]

Yeah, I'm guessing fullness is a very subjective thing. I'm sure you'll get fullness from things like the crystal you mention. And that Fullers London Porter is a beautiful thing and sounds similar to your initial thoughts.

 

[Megary]

The xBmt was interesting. The one thing I didn't like was the resulting perceived lack of fullness. I wonder if I chose a recipe with a fair amount of crystal, mashed higher say 152-154 and kept mh PH higher around 5.4 if the resulting brew would be more balanced and what I'm looking for? I'm also now hung up on that Fuller's London Porter that @Megary linked.

Any opinions on this recipe with the parameters above?
8.5 - 9lb 2Row
1 1/2 lb Crystal 60-70
1 lb Chocolate or Light Chocolate
1 lb wheat or maybe midnight wheat
4oz Carafa II or Carafa Special II

IBU 20-25 with 60/30/Flameout additions... Fuggles Maybe
Saf-04 Yeast
Final Kettle Volume 6 gal @ 75-80% mash efficiency

You’re not the only one who has gotten hung up on that Fuller’s recipe!

Check out reply #93 on this thread, about half way down the post. Seems like a pretty good starting point for a London Porter clone. I haven’t had a FLP in a long time and it’s near impossible to find one in NE PA…but I’m going to try this before the year’s out.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...als-neipa-from-the-horses-mouth.642756/page-3

If you ever take a run at this Porter, please keep us posted. I’ll do the same.

Cheers!

 

[Ward Chillington]

Possibly a modified brown ale with a little extra 'dark' in it. Malty, not bitter, yet robust.

Find a Newcastle Nut Brown recipe and cap it with some black patent for color and oats for the mouth feel.

 

[WesBrew]

Sounds like you are ok with the flavors that make stout and porter but don't like roasted barley. easy enough to leave it out. id bump the base malt to around 85% and use a blend of crystal, black and chocolate malt for the rest. Mash a little higher for residual sweetness

 

[Steve Ruch]

If roast barley is too harsh for your tastes you could sub blackprinz malt. It tastes like a mellow version of roast barley to me. I use it in my cream stout.

 

[Minbari]

One way I found to keep that nice roasty flavor is lactose sugar. Leaves a nice sweet finish.