No Flavor Saison Questions

[Dornbox]

Introduction and Question / Advice:

Hello all. I've been brewing off and on for a little over 25 years with periods of high activity (weekly / bi weekly brew sessions for a year or two) followed by children 10 years ago. So now I'm back and for my first attempts I dusted off an old favorite "Farmhouse" recipe from my brew logs. Brewing went off without a hitch except that my target mash temp never got above 148deg which historically I shot for 140 rest and a 155 rest. After 3 weeks in the fermenter and a final gravity of 1.001 I kegged it and have had it sitting on 27psi @ around 58deg for close to 3 days. I also did a little shaky shaky at 30 psi when first kegged. While I think it can use a little more time under pressure, it's not flat. My question or problem, this beer is bland! Bland like bud select with a little more hops. The only changes from my past brews where Yeast strain (originally I used WY3726 switched to WY3711), 75% reduction of German Munich specialty malt from 1 lb to 1/4" and an increased boil time from 1 hr to 1.5 hours, and water profile. I have no idea what my old water profile was but I do know my current well water is very soft. I added a little gyp and a tiny amount of calcium chloride. to come close to the BF Light hoppy water profile. Actual SO4 levels are unknow and my water profile is 3 years old but Maine is known for soft water. Anyway, any ideas why the flavor profile could be so flat? I have since brewed 2 more batches (both currently in fermenters ) with small tweaks but all using the same WY3711 yeast which is the only thing I can point at since I get very very very little Belgian / Whoolan ester and phenol taste. Originally it did have a slight banana to the nose but I think that has given way to the late hops aroma. Now I'm left with a slightly bitter and fizzy hop water. Thanks in advance!

OG was supposed to be 1.050 but my new refractometer needed calibration so I believe I ended up closer to 1.045.
FG 1.001-1.002 (hydrometer @ 68 deg)

Grain Bill:
10lbs Dingmans Belg Pills
1/4lbs German Cara Munich I
1/4lbs Torrified Wheat
1/4lbs Flaked Wheat

10% of Pills was sour mashed for 24 hours prior to adding to Mash

Final Mash PH should have been 5.3 ish
Mashed at 125 deg for 15 minutes / 145-148 deg for 40 min
Fly Sparged With Sprinkler for approx. 7 gal. with 170 deg water

Target IBUs where calculated at 42 with a 60 minute addition, 30 minute addition and Flame out addition.

Wort was chilled with a counterflow chiller, using a high agitation pour through a funnel filter, followed by a pitch of WY3711 directly from smack pack. Pitched around 68 deg.

Once yeast activity started the fermenter temp was raised to 90 deg for 24 hours ( I was trying to pull out the esters and phenols but over shot my intended 85 deg target) After that I allowed the temp to naturally drop where everything fermented for the majority of the time in the low 70s.

Co2 transferred from carboy to purged keg, added 1 tsp Ascorbic Acid.

27psi of Co2 for 3 days at 58 deg after a 1 minute 30psi shake session.

 

[Hawkbox]

I'm not really a Belgian style guy so I can't say with any confidence but it sounds like you probably should have fermented a bit warmer if you wanted more banana out of it. I found I get more of a clove flavour when I ferment them because I don't like banana, but that is an easy flavour to mistake for hop bitterness too.

Someone smarter than me will say something, but welcome aboard!

 

[Dornbox]

Welcome aboard!

Thanks Hawkbox!

Yeah, historically I liked to make this beer dry (FG 1.005) and hoppy so for wrong or right I was trying to tease out more of the esters and phenols in hopes of them not getting lost between the dryness and late hops additions. I'm still hopping further carbonation helps some but I cant see that alone bringing enough flavor back to this beer. I was actually worried that that first day of vigorous fermentation at 90deg was going make it taste like an ester bomb. Oh well, thanks!

 

[Megary]

I think this is a yeast issue and how you fermented it, not that you did anything wrong.

My opinion below:
WY3711 is a French Saison yeast and I think produces a more tame/easy-going Saison. I actually like it quite a bit and prefer fermenting it cool (65 to start....ramp it to 75 tops) in order to keep the hot/phenols to a minimum. I definitely still get a peppery spice with it and even a bit of lemony/sourness. When I have pushed it to 85-90 (and left it there for an extended period of time) it got too phenolic for my tastes.

I've never used 3726, but my guess is that this yeast is a far bit more complex and "Belgiany" (if such a thing even exists).

I think you were expecting one thing and got another. But I can't believe 3711 didn't produce any pepper/spice at all. Even fermenting cool and trying to keep the character to a minimum, it stills has character.

If your beer didn't attenuate like the monster that 3711 is I would assume you got the wrong yeast in the package.

Very interesting.

 

[Donoroto]

Welcome to Brewer's Friend!

I'm still a bit new at this, but nothing obvious jumps out. The process seems solid. How disappointing!

Is there someone else who can give it a taste, just to confirm?

 

[Bubba Wade]

I think it’s a reasonable looking recipe, so I suspect the yeast as well. I tried about four different Saison yeasts before settling on the Danstar Bella Saison. It ferments very dry. I like the flavor, but that’s always a personal preference.

I tried two different French Saison yeasts (but not the 3711), but I found both to be a bit tame.

Maybe the next batch you could try a side by side split with different yeasts.

 

[Minbari]

Never used either yeast, but I wonder if it lost character from the loss of the German Cara Munich?

 

[Dornbox]

Thanks for the welcome and reply's everyone!

While the yeast would certainly be a simple fix it would be a bit of a bummer as I now have 15 gallons of it split into 3 batches. I think I was most nervous about it being a water profile issue and having it happen again. While the yeast is a bummer since I have 2 more batches in primary, I suppose I could rack the other two batches to a secondary, add fruit, Brett, etc, call it an experiment and brew another batch of Saison. I do have WY3726, YL 590, and M29 in my fridge already soooo.

@Minbari ,For the Cara Munich, I would assume that would have pulled some malty caramel notes for sure but I wouldn't expect it to mute the yeast flavors.... Then again, I've never brewed such a simple grain bill before. I was hoping to make up for some of the loss of depth with the longer boil and maillard reaction which I have done with some success in the past but that was by using hot stones.

Thanks again BFs! ​

 

[Hawkbox]

Those are all options, so is pawning it off on your friends.

 

[Dornbox]

Those are all options, so is pawning it off on your friends.

Unfortunately this would be a first impression for most if not all of my local friends. They all know me as an OCD freak when it comes to doing stuff like brewing, grilling, etc. This would be a little too lukewarm of a first brew impression for my taste. If this was a mediocre brisket or rack of ribs I'd certainly pawn it off, my reputation there has been well established for a while! lol

 

[Hawkbox]

Well then you set the bar low and really wow them later on.

 

[Dornbox]

Well then you set the bar low and really wow them later on.

I like your style! lol

 

[Craigerrr]

Welcome to Brewers Friend!

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

Those are all options, so is pawning it off on your friends.

Perfect. Free beer always tastes better than the stuff you have to pay for.

 

[Donoroto]

Or pour it on the lawn as fertilizer.
Or distill it into hand sanitizer

 

[Mark Farrall]

I'd put the 3711 as one of the blander commercial saison yeasts. I don't use it if I'm doing something that's just malt, hops and yeast, but may use it for fruit or spice saisons where I just want a hint of yeast flavours.

I generally don't do anything special for temperature when I'm brewing my saisons. Just keep the ambient temperature in the ferm chamber at 20C and let the beer rise as high as it likes. So if it needs more babying than that to get the right profile I'm moving on to another yeast.

Not sure if it's too late for the beer you've got, but you could pitch some Brett. Clausenii (or any other Brett really) and give it a few months.

 

[Dornbox]

I'd put the 3711 as one of the blander commercial saison yeasts. I don't use it if I'm doing something that's just malt, hops and yeast, but may use it for fruit or spice saisons where I just want a hint of yeast flavours.

I generally don't do anything special for temperature when I'm brewing my saisons. Just keep the ambient temperature in the ferm chamber at 20C and let the beer rise as high as it likes. So if it needs more babying than that to get the right profile I'm moving on to another yeast.

Not sure if it's too late for the beer you've got, but you could pitch some Brett. Clausenii (or any other Brett really) and give it a few months.

Thanks for the insight Mark.

From what I can dig up on the internet it seems like everyone is all over with their experiences with the flavor profile of this yeast. I’m guessing that with the lower OG and super low FG this was not the droid I was looking for. I could co pitch one of my batches and see what happens. When in doubt, Brett it out also sounds like a solid choice but with only .001 for sugars left, would brettanomyces really have anything to work with?

 

[Mark Farrall]

They'll chew away at some of the esters and acids I suppose, but not a lot of sugars left there. Add some more wort and turn it into a super saison?

I just looked at my brett / saison batches and they're at 1.007 - 1.003 when I bottle. Maybe that's what's controlling how long until the brett characters start to show up? Generally I bottle and leave the beer alone for 3 months and then start opening them. Most are great at 6 months, some get a bit overblown before a year, some just stay controlled. Though most are drunk by 8 months so the evidence is a bit wonky at that end.

I also suspect a lot of people have different amounts of experience/tolerance of saison and that's a big part of what makes some people say intense and other say meh about the same strain. I'm the type who's looking for the latest nonsense from someone like Fantome to get my fix (and then stealing the yeast from the bottle).

 

[Dornbox]

They'll chew away at some of the esters and acids I suppose, but not a lot of sugars left there. Add some more wort and turn it into a super saison?

I just looked at my brett / saison batches and they're at 1.007 - 1.003 when I bottle. Maybe that's what's controlling how long until the brett characters start to show up? Generally I bottle and leave the beer alone for 3 months and then start opening them. Most are great at 6 months, some get a bit overblown before a year, some just stay controlled. Though most are drunk by 8 months so the evidence is a bit wonky at that end.

I also suspect a lot of people have different amounts of experience/tolerance of saison and that's a big part of what makes some people say intense and other say meh about the same strain. I'm the type who's looking for the latest nonsense from someone like Fantome to get my fix (and then stealing the yeast from the bottle).

I definitely like the Belgian yeast flavor profile. Especially in the higher gravity range. Something about those big dark fruit flavors. Have you tried any of the omega stuff where they separated the ester producing strains from the phenol ones?

I’ve played with Roeselare long ago but that was was long ago. Otherwise I’m mostly a sour mash / lacto guy. I just remembered everyone freaking about Brett infections so I didn’t get to deep into brewing with it. Drank a ton though! I really like a good Berliner Weiss with a touch of Brett complexity.

I’ve been wanting to cultivate De Rank XX Bitter and Thiriez yeast but most people say the De Rank is just an available Safale strain (T-58?).

 

[Mark Farrall]

I haven't had a chance to play with the Omega stuff. We really only get White Labs and Wyeast down here, though there's ways to order Yeast Bay and Imperial if you're more organised than I am.

I've got a cornie full of Roeselare that's about 30 months old. It's tasting very nice now. I don't think brett's any harder to kill than most sacch, but the consequences of missing it and creating mini-grenades are the real risk.

There's a blond sour sitting next to to the red/brown getting some age as well and I'm keen to see what it'll create. I'm planning to do another keg of the red/brown sour, this one sweeter and fruitier so that I can blend the two kegs. Probably try to hit some of those dark fruit notes you mention.

My second batch of a brett Berliner is in the fermenter at the moment. I'm trying to copy some of the approaches used by the newer Berlin brewers who are trying to revive the older mixed fermentation versions (https://beerandbrewing.com/will-the-real-berliner-weisse-please-stand-up/).

Haven't tried that T-58 and my memories of the De Ranke beers are getting foggier by the month. Just don't see them down here much.