Brewing With Total Confidence
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Discussion in 'Recipes for Feedback' started by Iliff Avenue Brewhouse, Jun 15, 2021.
I think we’re talking about two different things. Thanks though…
How so? Dextrose is as fermentable as table sugar. That was your question wasn't it?
Does mashed flaked corn become 100% dextrose if converted? Or I guess 80% converted? Just a learning experience for me.
Because the flaked product is basically flour without any hull material, all of it will convert into fermentable sugars.
That is if you give it enough time in the mash for the starches to convert. That's why in my initial post I expressed concern with the length of the mash.
So when using flaked products, you should get better efficiency.
As I mentioned, the volume of corn is subject to your mash efficiency so if your mash efficiency is 80% then approximately 80 % of the corn's starches are converted. It's probably not a linear relation ship but close enough for calculating the recipe. As Brew Mentor mentions, there's not much other than starch in the flaked grains but I don't think that the entire weight can be converted directly.
An easy way to get a handle on it is to build a quick recipe using 75 or 80 percent efficiency and using several lbs of flaked corn. Make a note of the OG and then substitute the corn for the same weight of table sugar. You'll see that the OG goes up by several points.
As a general rule, sugars from corn, rice and a few other cereal adjuncts are considered fully fermentable in the wort and act much the same as table sugar, making the beer lighter-bodied and thinner and usually boosting attenuation.
I have never had the experience of using rice and have it as fermentable as cane sugar or dextrose. Both those sugars are refined, the sugars from the rice and corn conversions can still leave you with dextrins. So the the added sugar is capable of being completely metabolized by the yeast, the rice/corn not so much due to starches that have not been completely broken down into simple sugars. I use adjuncts in beer and it produces a lighter flavor with out being super dry or overly attenuated. I have made Belgian beers with 20% rice and they are no where near as attenuated as when 20% sugar is used.
I have found rice adds a touch of sweetness to the beer as well. That's my take on it. I may be way off, but that has been my experience. I personally don't like sugar in an adjunct beer, rice and corn add to the character of the beer, IMHO.
Nope. It converts to mostly maltose, jusr like any other starch. 80% is likely a good enough estimate.
Thanks. You pretty much addressed what my point. I guess I didn’t explain myself very well with when referring to fermentability. Thought I was on crazy pills or something.
And sucrose is more fermentable than maltose correct?
Can you cite your source on that information? Where does corn sugar (destrose) come from if maltose is all that corn produces?
A recipe with 20% sugar is always going to be higher in OG and attenuation than 20% grain adjunct. The sugar is not subject to the mash efficiency whereas the rice or corn definitely is. To get the same amount of sugar from rice in the mash you'd have to use a higher percentage of it in the recipe.
My point is that rice or corn do not produce refined sugar, and simply substituting either adjunct with sugar, in equal parts in the final wort does make the same beer. The beer with sugar will attenuate more than the beer made with rice or corn. The reason is is that the mash cannot reduce all starches to simply sugars like glucose, sucrose, fructose or dextrose, which make up most refined sugars. All of which can be 100% metabolize by the yeast. Some of the sugars produce from adjuncts in the mash can be too complex to ferment and contribute to a higher final gravity.
Thanks again. This is exactly what I was trying to get across to justify my use of sugar. I still get that most people probably still wouldn’t use it…
Dextrose is glucose. All starch is a polymer of glucose. Malt enzymes don't care about the source of the starch, they make primarily maltose, a three-glucose or trisaccharide sugar. It's possible to reduce the maltose either using enzymes or chemicals to glucose or dextrose, same thing. The monosaccharide dextrose is the result.
If corn is producing essentially the same sugars as barley malt, why is beer made with corn consistently more fermentable and demonstrably more dry and thin-bodied? There has to be some fundamental difference in the resulting sugars.
Nope. Just fewer dextrines. It may be that the corn starches don't branch as much and corn has next to no protein. Either way the enzymes munch starch in groups of three, just like barley starch.
Dextrose is made by enzymatic reduction of cornstarch or starch from other grain; however, the enzymes are different, producing a monosaccharide rather than the trisaccharides malt enzymes produce.
Alpha and beta amylase work together in the mash. From my understanding, only beta amylase produces maltose, plus some glucose, etc. Alpha amylase will break down the starches to into simpler polysaccharides so that the beta enzyme can fit them into it's "socket". In other words the beta enzyme can't break up the more complex polysaccharides because it can't force a water moleclue between the long chain of carbon moleclues that make up starch. It simply doesn't fit into the beta enzyme. This is no different from any other polysaccharide that these enzymes come in contact with. I don't think that the very same sugars in the same ratio are produce by each grain, but they are very similar.
Adjuncts, such as rice and corn, were mainly added to reduce the protein content of the overall grain bill. It also lightened the flavor and color. The original purpose was to achieve beer clarity with high protein malts. It may produce slightly more fermentable wort, but it's no where nearly as fermentable as refined sugars.
Makes sense...type of enzyme dictates type of sugar produced and we're using the enzymes from the barley malt to do the work. The lack of dextrines then gives a somewhat more fermentable wort. Since I do a long b-amylase rest at relatively low temp I probably get maximum effect in terms of fermentability from the corn or rice adjunct I use and notice a higher attenuation, etc.
Updated the recipe once again. My bro in law had a great Mexican lager on and I made some changes based in on his recipe. Less corn as you guys suggest and more Vienna.