Is it worth doing closed pressure transfer

[HighVoltageMan!]

I'm unclear on how this works. Is co2 going into the carboy just to start the siphon? Then gas off? And what about the beer into the keg ... do you connect to the beer out post on the keg? Anything special with the keg, or are you just letting the beer displace oxygen as the keg fills? Or is the keg given a blast of co2 so that as beer goes in it displaces mostly co2 with some o2?

The keg is purge of all air by filling it with starsan and forcing the starsan out the out post with co2. Once the keg is purge, I release the co2 pressure from the keg, leaving only a very slight positive pressure in it (1 pound or so).

The tubing from the carboy is purge with co2 by lifting the racking cane out of the beer and forcing co2 into the carboy and out the tubing by loosing the fitting on the liquid post adapter, I let it run for a while to purge the o2 out. Then the fitting is tightened and the post adapter is put on the keg, then the racking cane is lowered into the beer.

The beer starts flowing and then I open the pressure relief valve on the keg. As long as there is beer flowing there will always be a positive pressure in the keg. The gas is left on the carboy at 1-2 pounds (slight positive pressure) until the beer is out of the carboy. To stop the flow into the keg, just lift the post adapter off the keg, close the relief valve, pressurize the keg and your done.

Your beer is reasonably spared aeration.

 

[GFHomebrew]

How about this for a dirty o2 spanner in the worx .... Instead of pushing out starssan filled keg with co2 then pressure Transfering in young beer. What about using a recently kicked keg let's say a Pilsner that you know there is less than half a cup of trub left and was a clean beer. Well here is your co2 filled keg ready to recieve your Lo 02 transfer??.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

How about this for a dirty o2 spanner in the worx .... Instead of pushing out starssan filled keg with co2 then pressure Transfering in young beer. What about using a recently kicked keg let's say a Pilsner that you know there is less than half a cup of trub left and was a clean beer. Well here is your co2 filled keg ready to recieve your Lo 02 transfer??.

I’ve done that!

 

[Nosybear]

That's exactly what I do. Beats the heck out of having to keep pumping an autosiphon

It's my setup too, if I'm not using a carboy with a spigot. If I'm using a spigot, I flush the receiving carboy with CO2. As mentioned above, somewhat crude compared to the keggers, but it works.

 

[soccerdad]

Thanks all. Still confused and sort of hesitant to blow through kegs of either Star San or beer gas. One day I'll understand it, but I don't yet.

 

[Nosybear]

Just use reasonable precautions to keep as much air out of the beer as possible after you've pitched the yeast. We can't keep all the air out of it and to me it doesn't seem reasonable to even try. My beer is good, it has a long shelf life and I trust the yeast I bottle condition with to take as much of the O2 out of the beer as possible. Seems to work.

 

[Mase]

I do not do secondary fermentation any more, but transferring from fermenter to keg, here's my approach:

Fresh rinse with Star-San, then I hook up my CO2 line from my regulator to the Liquid post on my keg so the CO2 goes directly to the bottom of the keg. Then push CO2 for 10-15 seconds at 10-12 psi into the keg. Then insert my transfer line into my fermenter and on the other end to the very bottom of the keg. I do this slowly so that the theoretical blanket of CO2 isn't disturbed. Then begin transferring under the blanket of CO2.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

Just use reasonable precautions to keep as much air out of the beer as possible after you've pitched the yeast. We can't keep all the air out of it and to me it doesn't seem reasonable to even try. My beer is good, it has a long shelf life and I trust the yeast I bottle condition with to take as much of the O2 out of the beer as possible. Seems to work.

This is one of the reasons bottle conditioned beer usually has a good shelf, the yeast itself is an antioxidant. Precautions should still be used to avoid o2 ingress, but it’s not as critical as kegging with reduced or no yeast. If a beer is kegged without regard to o2 ingress, it can stale very quickly.

 

[Nosybear]

You could hypothetically do the same thing in a keg if you were willing to wait two weeks after kegging and could accept some yeast in the first pour or two.... I'd think the yeast would do the same thing in a keg it does in a bottle.

 

[jeffpn]

There aren’t too many people packaging homebrew with no yeast. That takes more effort than I’ve ever seen anyone do.

 

[Nosybear]

In the case I'm talking about, give them some priming sugar - you'll have about 100,000 cells per ml if the beer is bright - and let them do their scavenging while producing CO2. Seems a lot easier than all these LoDo, closed-transfer processes.

 

[Hawkbox]

I have a ginger beer I kegged in October with no special effort to keep oxygen out, I bleed the keg when I pressurize it shortly after filling but that's about it. It tastes great.

 

[Beer_Pirate]

Derailing this thread completely, has anyone here keg primed with sugar? If so, how many pints blew out crud before it ran clear, and was the time comparable to bottle conditioning or longer?

 

[soccerdad]

I do not do secondary fermentation any more, but transferring from fermenter to keg, here's my approach:

Fresh rinse with Star-San, then I hook up my CO2 line from my regulator to the Liquid post on my keg so the CO2 goes directly to the bottom of the keg. Then push CO2 for 10-15 seconds at 10-12 psi into the keg. Then insert my transfer line into my fermenter and on the other end to the very bottom of the keg. I do this slowly so that the theoretical blanket of CO2 isn't disturbed. Then begin transferring under the blanket of CO2.

So this keg (the one receiving beer) was given a shot of co2 but not sealed up? Seems to me that if you are ok having co2 seep out and maybe a bit of o2 seep in, you could clamp the lid on, put a gas QD on with no tubing or other connection and push the beer in through the liquid QD. Beer is filling from the bottom and gas is escaping through the open gas QD.

 

[soccerdad]

Derailing this thread completely, has anyone here keg primed with sugar? If so, how many pints blew out crud before it ran clear, and was the time comparable to bottle conditioning or longer?

No more trub at the bottom than with force carb (in my experience). I primed with about half of what you would for bottling 5 gallons. Just read that you were supposed to do that. About a pint blows out (most of) the trub at the bottom.

 

[Mase]

So this keg (the one receiving beer) was given a shot of co2 but not sealed up? Seems to me that if you are ok having co2 seep out and maybe a bit of o2 seep in, you could clamp the lid on, put a gas QD on with no tubing or other connection and push the beer in through the liquid QD. Beer is filling from the bottom and gas is escaping through the open gas QD.

CO2 is heavier than breathing air. The CO2 wont "seep out"
Same thing with my bottling gun... When I run out of keg space, I transfer beer from the keg to a bottle. The beer gun has a CO2 trigger to place CO2 at the bottom of the bottle so that when you pull the beer trigger, the beer is always under CO2.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

In the case I'm talking about, give them some priming sugar - you'll have about 100,000 cells per ml if the beer is bright - and let them do their scavenging while producing CO2. Seems a lot easier than all these LoDo, closed-transfer processes.

No matter what technique you use, closed transfer is the best practice for kegging.

 

[soccerdad]

CO2 is heavier than breathing air. The CO2 wont "seep out"

Except that in the case I'm suggesting, it would. Unless I am so stupid they are going to banish me to South Georgia forever

If you blast the keg with some co2 at the bottom (from the beer out post), then transfer fresh beer into the keg from that same post, the beer will flow slowly, and as it rises in the keg, any air above the beer will push out of the unblocked gas QD. It won't blast out, but rather seep out as the rising beer level displaces any air, or any mix of o2 and co2. In my limited and very tiny brain, it seems that this would work. I would still purge the keg a few times after the Lines and QDs are removed to have only beer and co2 in the keg as it awaits deployment.

 

[Mase]

Except that in the case I'm suggesting, it would. Unless I am so stupid they are going to banish me to South Georgia forever

If you blast the keg with some co2 at the bottom (from the beer out post), then transfer fresh beer into the keg from that same post, the beer will flow slowly, and as it rises in the keg, any air above the beer will push out of the unblocked gas QD. It won't blast out, but rather seep out as the rising beer level displaces any air, or any mix of o2 and co2. In my limited and very tiny brain, it seems that this would work. I would still purge the keg a few times after the Lines and QDs are removed to have only beer and co2 in the keg as it awaits deployment.

I don't transfer beer into the same post (beer out). I run the transfer line directly from my fermenter into the keg (lid off), making sure that the transfer line is sitting on the bottom of the keg. I use the "beer out" post just to get CO2 directly into the bottom of the keg. Since CO2 is heavier than the air we breathe, theoretically, the CO2 blanket stays on top of the beer that is rising from the bottom of the keg. Once the beer is transferred to the keg, then I put the lid on the keg, put the CO2 line from my regulator onto the "Gas" post and purge out any remaining air through a half dozen or so burps of the pressure release valve.

 

[Mark D Pirate]

You could hypothetically do the same thing in a keg if you were willing to wait two weeks after kegging and could accept some yeast in the first pour or two.... I'd think the yeast would do the same thing in a keg it does in a bottle.

They absolutely do , I keg natural carb my clone of a local commercial beer .
The commercial kegs are done the same way and are stored inverted until being tapped since this beer is served mit hefe anyway