Improve dry hopping

[jb1986]

Hello,

The last two beers I brewed had lots of dry hopping but unfortunately I'm a bit disapointed with the result.

The beers (a white IPA and a West Coast IPA) are perfectly fine for all the other things but the flavours that should come with dry hopping are not present enough IMHO.

My process:
-Ferment at 18°C during 3 days
-Dry hop at 19°C during 2-3 days
-Wait 4-5 days at 19°C until the beer finished the fermation
-Cold crash at 5°C during 3-4 days
-Bottle


Here the 2 recipes:
West coast:
-5.9Kg Golden promise
-0.43Kg crystal
-21gr Citra for 60min
-20gr Citra for 30min
-15gr citra for 20min
-25gr citra hop stand
-100gr citra dry hopping.
-Yeast: verdant IPA

White IPA:
-Maris Otter 3.500 kg
-Wheat Malt 2.200 kg
-Flaked Oats 0.550 kg
-Flaked Wheat 0.500 kg
-10gr warrior for 60min
-25gr perle + 25gr mosaic + 25gr amarillo for 10min
-50gr cascade for 5min
-Dry hopping: 50gr mosaic + 50gr amarillo
-yeast: T-58

Couples of ideas I have to improve:
-Use more hops
-Dry hop longer (But I saw in Scott Janishs book that 48hours was enough)
-Dry hop after cold crash
- ???

Any hint?

KR

 

[Megary]

I'd bet there aren't 2 brewers that dry hop the same way, so be prepared for a lot of different suggestions.

I have found that dry-hopping closer to packaging has helped my hops flavor and aroma considerably. So, I would consider moving your dry-hop to no more than 24-48 hours before cold crashing.

Also, if your bottling procedure introduces a lot of oxygen, your hops presence is going to fade in short order. It's hard to get around this as a homebrewer other than to set up a tight, low-O2 transfer to bottles...and even at that, you should still drink your IPA's quickly!

As an aside, I would also bitter with something other than Citra. Save those wonderful late hops for the end of the boil. Consider Magnum, Bravo, Nugget etc. for your 60-minute additions.

God luck - and wait for a ton of other great suggestions sure to follow.

 

[Donoroto]

Agree - hop a bit later, watch the oxygen exposure, and use magnum for bittering. Those things will help.

100 grams is a good amount. Do you just dump them in, or use a bag or something to manage the vegetation? (Not that it matters much).

Are the hops 'fresh' (as in, not stale)? How do they smell to you?

I find that higher carbonation levels bring out the citra and mosaic odors better.

 

[jb1986]

My idea for this beer was to do some sor tof smash to learn exactly how citra tastes. That's why I've used citra for bittering too.

Hops have been ~5months in my freezer before I used them but they were smelling good. When I open the beer I can smell the nice flavor but not tasting it that much anymore when I drink it. I filled the head space with CO2 to avoid oxydation.

I dump them in and purge my conical fermenter 1 day before bottling but I'mthinking about using a bag again.

Do higher IBUs also decrease the perception of dry hopping?

ps: any reason why Magnum and not something else? Never tried it TBH.

 

[Megary]

I certainly get the idea of a Smash and you can obviously bitter with pretty much any hop that has a decent AA content, just that some hops (Citra) are so awesome at the end that they seem to be a waste early in the boil.

Magnum (and Bravo) provides a firm, but very smooth bitterness and can be used to bitter almost anything. It is the one hop variety that is always in my inventory.

Now, for an IPA, I acknowledge that some might prefer a bitterness that is a bit more up-front, sharper. I like Galaxy for that purpose.

Cheers!

 

[Minbari]

Biggest thing that kills hop flavor in ipa is oxygen. Any, will cause your dry hop to dissipate very quickly.
So purging and attention to detail is important.

Also crystal/cara/caramel grains will introduce o2. The process of making them oxidizes the malt which then releases in the beer. So nix those and add other malts

 

[Donoroto]

No particular requirement for Magnum, but relatively inexpensive, good at bitter, and not terribly great for much else. But there are many many alternatives.

So hop aroma is ok, flavor is less? I never thought about it, but I speculate that yes, high bitterness masks flavors.

More hops will get you more flavor. One recipe I tried here uses over a pound of citra and mosaic (Wayner's Pale Ale), but there is a point of diminishing returns.

A local brewery (Gate City Brewing) makes a beer named Citras Maximus, and boy does the citra come through. Not sure how they do it, but @Trialben 's "Bunyip" comes closer than I've done on my own.

I wonder if hop oil, or cryo hops, might boost flavor to your desired level.

 

[BarbarianBrewer]

Also crystal/cara/caramel grains will introduce o2. The process of making them oxidizes the malt which then releases in the beer. So nix those and add other malts

@Minbari, can you expand on this? It doesn't seem possible (to me at least) that any grain that is mashed and boiled can have any effect on O2 levels in the beer.

 

[GFHomebrew]

@Minbari, can you expand on this? It doesn't seem possible (to me at least) that any grain that is mashed and boiled can have any effect on O2 levels in the beer.

I too can back this up from what I've read herd on the interwebs yes caramel malts have something in them that can speed up or compound any oxidation issues in the Packaged product.

https://newrealmbrewing.com/hoptripper/the-real-quality-issue-oxidation/

from this article related to oxidation in crystal malt beers.


In beers brewed with a high percentage of crystal malt, the caramel and toffee like flavors evolve into a dried fruit flavor, raisins or prunes. In addition, these oxidized crystal malt characters will also mask and hasten the loss of hop flavor, which is why many of the best IPA brewers use very little to no crystal malts in their IPAs.

 

[Daniel Parshley]

I too can back this up from what I've read herd on the interwebs yes caramel malts have something in them that can speed up or compound any oxidation issues in the Packaged product.

https://newrealmbrewing.com/hoptripper/the-real-quality-issue-oxidation/

from this article related to oxidation in crystal malt beers.


In beers brewed with a high percentage of crystal malt, the caramel and toffee like flavors evolve into a dried fruit flavor, raisins or prunes. In addition, these oxidized crystal malt characters will also mask and hasten the loss of hop flavor, which is why many of the best IPA brewers use very little to no crystal malts in their IPAs.

I noticed this about crystal but thought it was my imagination. Yes, do drink IPAs soon. I'm a pack rat and like to save a few from previous batches and around month 6 they get very similar in hop flavor and aroma. Bitter seems to hang around the longest.

 

[GFHomebrew]

I noticed this about crystal but thought it was my imagination. Yes, do drink IPAs soon. I'm a pack rat and like to save a few from previous batches and around month 6 they get very similar in hop flavor and aroma. Bitter seems to hang around the longest.

Yup and the bittering can become harsh from oxidised iso alpha acids.

Something about crystal malts being more prone to the oxidation is the key with them malts.

I suppose this bodes well with the increasing trend to sub out caramel malts in favour for Munich and Vienna.

I'd say in brown ale English bitters and milds the use of caramel malts oxidising into prune raisin flavours may actually suit the style even .

 

[Minbari]

I too can back this up from what I've read herd on the interwebs yes caramel malts have something in them that can speed up or compound any oxidation issues in the Packaged product.

https://newrealmbrewing.com/hoptripper/the-real-quality-issue-oxidation/

from this article related to oxidation in crystal malt beers.


In beers brewed with a high percentage of crystal malt, the caramel and toffee like flavors evolve into a dried fruit flavor, raisins or prunes. In addition, these oxidized crystal malt characters will also mask and hasten the loss of hop flavor, which is why many of the best IPA brewers use very little to no crystal malts in their IPAs.

@BarbarianBrewer What he said.

 

[Craigerrr]

That's why I've used citra for bittering too.
- I have never used Citra for bittering, but I have heard that it brings some less desirable flavors when used for bittering.


Hops have been ~5months in my freezer
- Do you vacuum seal your hops?

ps: any reason why Magnum and not something else? Never tried it TBH.
- I really like Magnum for bittering, it is a low cost hop, and it brings what I would call a "smooth bitterness".

Your 60 minute addition doesn't really bring much if any flavor or aroma, so it wouldn't interfere much with experimenting with Citra, or any other hop.

 

[GFHomebrew]

I echo the above thoughts on keeping your Citra for late kettle additions even better just Whirlpooled or Dry hopped.

If I were looking for inspiration on how to extract more aroma and flavour from my hops I'd be sure to listen up when craigerr weighed in as I know he's a devoted returning hop head of a brewer.

I agree with Megary ask a bunch of brewers their Dry hopping procedures you'll get 10 answers and many more questions.

We all can agree that oxygen is a big hop flavour aroma killer.

One thing that's not been mentioned is Metabisulphates and Ascorbic Acid these in conjunction at .4g each at time of packaging is a great insurance policy for all my beers.

Hey it's one thing us hombrewers have the advantage over commercial brewers who aren't allowed to add Metabisulphate in packaging.

They are a known oxygen scavenger why not try em out in your next IPA?

 

[Over The Cliff Brewing]

I make a few IPA's and hoppy pale ales. Over time I have moved most of the hop additions to later in the boil and whirlpool. As far as dry hopping, I have tried long hop schedules, cold hopping, you name it. If you have had Bell's Two Hearted Ale you will experience high IBU and the centennial hop flavor. There is quite a bit of carmel malt. Having written all of this, I should have just said ditto to what everyone else has written but you need to do trial and error when it comes to hopping, period.

 

[Zefram]

I have a brewer friend that makes a killer WC IPA and he actually dry hops it during the cold crash. I've not tried it on the homebrew level, but something to consider.

I've started dry-hopping with cryo hops (14g cryo + 7g regular for each 28g of a recipe)... been pretty impressed thus far. Doing that with a Two Hearted clone right now, actually!

 

[jb1986]

Hello,

Thank you for all your answers!

First, I don't think it's oxydation. Color is nice, the west coast is only few weeks old, I filled the head space with CO2 and in fact I added ascorbic acid in the white IPA. But the discussion regarding crystal malt is very interesting. I remember reading that non-malted malts were another reason for oxydation in NEIPAs.

Hops were vacuum sealed.

So for my next beer I'll use more hops, add them later and for a little longer (4 days ?).

It's going to be based on Brewdog dead poney club. A session IPA with almost 200gr of dry hopping but with verdant IPA.

 

[GFHomebrew]

Hello,

Thank you for all your answers!

First, I don't think it's oxydation. Color is nice, the west coast is only few weeks old, I filled the head space with CO2 and in fact I added ascorbic acid in the white IPA. But the discussion regarding crystal malt is very interesting. I remember reading that non-malted malts were another reason for oxydation in NEIPAs.

Hops were vacuum sealed.

So for my next beer I'll use more hops, add them later and for a little longer (4 days ?).

It's going to be based on Brewdog dead poney club. A session IPA with almost 200gr of dry hopping but with verdant IPA.

Time for some exbeeriments...

 

[BarbarianBrewer]

I too can back this up from what I've read herd on the interwebs yes caramel malts have something in them that can speed up or compound any oxidation issues in the Packaged product.

https://newrealmbrewing.com/hoptripper/the-real-quality-issue-oxidation/

from this article related to oxidation in crystal malt beers.


In beers brewed with a high percentage of crystal malt, the caramel and toffee like flavors evolve into a dried fruit flavor, raisins or prunes. In addition, these oxidized crystal malt characters will also mask and hasten the loss of hop flavor, which is why many of the best IPA brewers use very little to no crystal malts in their IPAs.

Thanks to @Minbari and @Trialben for the brewing education! I was thinking it impossible for the grain to retain any oxygen through to the final beer. I never thought of the chemical compounds created during the creation of crystal malt affecting the beer in the same way as oxygen introduced at packaging does.

 

[GFHomebrew]

Thanks to @Minbari and @Trialben for the brewing education! I was thinking it impossible for the grain to retain any oxygen through to the final beer. I never thought of the chemical compounds created during the creation of crystal malt affecting the beer in the same way as oxygen introduced at packaging does.

It's a new revelation to me too BarbarianBrewer.

Actually that Paddy fella from the beery interesting podcast talked about it which spiked my interest.