IBU changes when I change from Boil to FWH. Why?

Discussion in 'Recipe Editor' started by OkanaganMike, Nov 27, 2016.

  1. OkanaganMike

    OkanaganMike Active Member

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    Brewing an IPA Today and playing with the recipe a bit. Question as above, why does the IBU drop when I convert my 60min boil hops to FWH? They're going in the kettle as soon as I pull my grain (BIAB).

    Am I missing something? Thanks.
     
  2. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    Are you using the desktop version? I'll see if I can recreate. Do you have the recipe public, where I can take at look at yours? Also, if you link to the recipe that will help.

    I will also try to recreate in one of my own recipes so I can look at it. It's possible that it's the formula so I will have to look into it.
     
  3. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    I see what you mean! I tried it with my "Fresh Squeezed" clone, and the boil time was greyed out and the IBUs dropped significantly. Let me ask the developer about this.
     
  4. OkanaganMike

    OkanaganMike Active Member

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    Hey sorry for the delay I'm brewing now too. LOL. Its private and as I copied it from one of my others and can't remember how to make to public after tcopying. Wish there was a simple box you could tick. Gotta look it up as I know someone told me how to do it once but just can't see where to do it in the tools section right now.
     
  5. OkanaganMike

    OkanaganMike Active Member

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  6. Trialben

    Trialben Well-Known Member

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    Yep I had this problem brewing my recent batch of beer with FWH I just thought oh maybe it doesn't contribute same IBUs
     
  7. Ozarks Mountain Brew

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  8. Ozarks Mountain Brew

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    I think the subject is controversial and 5 people will say 5 different things, also IBU is perceived different by different people. I use first wort all the time and I also use mash hopping even more to replace dry hopping so the way I do it is add your finishing hop to the mash or first wort hop the also add your bitterness hop at 60 or where ever, I ignore the ibu in mash hopping and only use half the ibu of my finish hops in first wort

    My thoughts on the subject
    so the question remains if you steep hops from 0 to 160F does it give you bitterness at all, "I say no" so the hop oil is extracted at those temperatures and the hop that is boiled has changed density leaving you less ibu since most of the oil is extracted earlier and not in the hop o_O
     
  9. OkanaganMike

    OkanaganMike Active Member

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    Yeah I realize the IBU's are a variable and the only way to get a proper number is have a lab rocess it and it ain't that important to me.
    @ Ozarks - I agree with you on the hops at lower temps don't contribute to the final IBU and they only contribute to the aroma ad flavor. However, (and respectively), I don't think you are correct with your boiled hops thinking. The boiled hops have had the majority of their aroma properties removed from the boiling process, leaving you only with the bittering properties.

    Unless I misunderstood, but I read your comment a few times before replying as there aint nothing worse than some jackass running his mouth without thinking it through. Unfortunatley I'm trying to be a converted jackass hehehehe. :D
     
  10. Ozarks Mountain Brew

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    I get it, no biggie the point is the oil doesn't convert to bitterness but the plant matter does and most of the oil is removed pre boil and some of the plant drops to the bottom

    edit: so when you add hops it mixes all around mostly at the top when boiling and now theirs less hop matter to boil
     
  11. Ozarks Mountain Brew

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  12. OkanaganMike

    OkanaganMike Active Member

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    Ah there you go. We're on the same page. I FWH'd with an oz of centennial just cuz I had an extra one. Then Cascade at 45 and 20, 1 ea Mosaic and Citra @ 5 and again at whirlpool after it cooled to 178. Gonna dry hop with 1ea of Mosaic and Citra @ 7days.

    Can't wait, giggidy!
     
  13. Trialben

    Trialben Well-Known Member

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    Well I'm thinking FWH and Mash hops don't contribute much to bitterness to my once off experiment with this method. My last brew I didn't actually know when to add the FWH and added them to my mash after I mashed in so I didn't actually FWH I mash hopped I used an 15%AA hop Pacific Gem with a beta acid of 6% but low oil so probably shouldn't have even used this for an attempt at FWH anyway. But I didn't get any extra bitterness from this mash addition in my resultant beer if anything I could of added a gram or two to the 60 min because I perceived bitterness to low on this brew. My last brew the ssh it swartzy brew I did a Proper FWH at end of mash but I added this to my kettle not to my biab bag it spent a good half hour at 69c ish temp and up till mash out temp before a 90 minute boil commenced. I will have to wait and see I'm looking forward how it ages in the keg and weather those flavours stick around longer and weather the bitterness is harsh or smooth.
     
  14. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    And I'm going to disagree with you both (HA)! Hops oils isomerization DOES happen at less than boiling temperatures. You can add ALL of you hops at flame out, and still get plenty of bittering (assuming you add enough of them, of course). Whirlpool hops are often added at 180 degrees and held there, and they contribute IBUs.

    You won't get any bittering from mash hopping, since the hops are removed before the boil, but with FWH you definitely do. I will agree that it is a less perceived firm bitterness to the tongue- but the IBUs are still there!
     
  15. Ozarks Mountain Brew

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    and Ill add another twist, it all depends on your water, my water is very soft when filtered so I have a hard time bittering anything but I wont go into that its another 10 yes and 10 no type of topic ;)
     
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  16. OkanaganMike

    OkanaganMike Active Member

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    Well who am I to argue with someone dressed like that and holding a whip?

    There is a lot of stuff going on with hops to get one's head around eh? I actually knew the whirlpooling adds some bitterness and not sure why I said that :oops: as its part of the hops utilization field in the recipe builder.

    Nice boots tho;)
     
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  17. KC

    KC Active Member

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    Leave it at this. It's not an issue that will be resolved in these forums. There's not enough understanding yet in the homebrew community to make a strong argument in any case.

    I read BF documentation that the calculator intentionally treats the IBUs of FWH as if it were a 20 minute addition. That's why you see the IBUs drop when you switch from 60 min. There is an article online that recommends this method but the article is old and fairly out of date. I imagine BF uses it because they need to have something as a basis for the calculator.
     
  18. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    Yes, that's exactly right. We just had this discussion earlier today, and I told Josh that the IBU calculator using FWH as a 20 minute addition is "old school". My suggestion (and please, give yours as well!!!!) is to go with a "boil time +10%" default for the IBU calculation of a FWH, and perhaps add a note that "FWH may show a decrease in IBU perception/bitterness perception but with an increase of flavor" or something more eloquent. I would like it then to be able to be changed by the brewer if they feel that their calculated IBUs should be different than the default.

    Other things go into the bitterness perception as well. For example, sulfate. Adding 300 ppm of sulfate will really enhance a firm (some say harsh) bitterness. It doesn't change the IBUs, either, but instead it's a perception thing. Adding 15% crystal malt may make the IBUs seem less pronounced as well, and so on.

    Since few homebrewers actually have the means to test the actual IBUs, it's a guessing game anyway but we'd like it to be the best it can be.
     
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  19. OkanaganMike

    OkanaganMike Active Member

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  20. Trialben

    Trialben Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the link mike so FWH do contribute bitterness but with less harshness. I will continue to try out this First Wort Hopping and taste and see:)
     

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