Hop'n my brew..

Discussion in 'General Brewing Discussions' started by beer1965, Apr 18, 2020.

  1. beer1965

    beer1965 Active Member

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    Hi Guys.. haven't been brewing and running out of beer. I'm going to make an IPA tomorrow that has a bunch of different hops but they're added at different times. I'm relative to most of you guys new to this so some advice please..

    The recipe calls for hops at beginning, middle and end and then dry..

    Questions:

    I get adding beginning and middle - at the start and mid point of the boil.

    But for the end do I add them just before I turn off the heat - I assume the point of that is to have those "end" hops added to get heated up to release more oils etc.. is that why? Or should I add it just after I turn off the heat/boil and before I cool it?

    And for the dry hop adding - do I do it a few days later or I do it once it goes into the carboy? And do you leave them in there until you're going to rack to a bottling bucket? I'm using a carboy so I was thinking of using a sock for these dry hops which means I probably would have trouble pulling them out of the carboy early.. I have a bucket but everything I read says they don't seal well enough..

    What would you do?

    This is the recipe: https://brewdogrecipes.com/recipes/punk-ipa-2010-current

    i had this beer a few months a go and REALLY liked it. Took me a while to get the hops and this one has definitely been more expensive given all the hops but I wanted to give it a try.. should have emailed them my questions but just thought about this and I don't think I'd get a reply on in time to brew tomorrow..

    As always, thanks in advance!
     
  2. 4Bentley

    4Bentley Active Member

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    #2 4Bentley, Apr 18, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2020
    There are a lot of opinions on how to do this, so you have a lot of flexibility. If you want to be faithful to the recipe you might consult the author. You have to decide if you want to try and reproduce the recipe or deviate and hope for something better. I have done both. Here are my opinions though, on your questions.

    On the end addition, it doesn't refer to whirlpooling, so I assume you won't be doing it. If no whirlpool I would add the hops at about 2-5 min before flameout.

    On the dry hop I would add them about day 4 when the krausen starts to fall. Traditional dry hop is done after fermentation stops though. I would throw them in the carboy and leave until ready to rack and bottle.

    Someone may have insight into the author's intentions, but these are my opinions.

    Good luck.
     
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  3. Mark Farrall

    Mark Farrall Well-Known Member

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    #3 Mark Farrall, Apr 19, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2020
    Haven't had one of those for a few years, so don't know if it's moved to hazy side like a lot of beers from that era. What I remember was a West Coast approach with a bit different hop blend (and that's what that recipe looks like).

    So West Coast approaches are more likely to have the end hops added while it was still boiling, rather than during the whirlpool. And were more likely to not extend the whirlpool time. They were also more likely to add the dry hops in one addition a few days after fermentation was complete and wait 5-7 days. The reality was more varied than that and bits and pieces of approaches that people see as East Coast and modern would have been used in West Coast style beers now and then.

    Newer approaches to IPAs will remove or minimise the middle and starting additions. Add far more after the boil and steep those hops before whirlpooling. They'll add the dry hop in 1-3 additions, often during active fermentation. And the hopping rates will be 5 -10 times what they were with the West Coast approaches. They'll also add in more and more amounts of higher protein grains to the grist. These all have the side effect of making the beer hazier.

    And that's also changing. Now there's trends developing to cut down the time spent post boil and dry hops are happening colder and for around 2 days.

    All of which means there's an endless array of approaches to craft the type of hoppy beer you like. Probably best to start with something closer to a traditional West Coast approach, especially as that matches the recipe fairly well. Once you've tried that approach you can then try some of the other approaches and see if you like them more.
     
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  4. Craigerrr

    Craigerrr Well-Known Member

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    I have had the Punk, great beer. Definitely a West Coast style IPA. About the end of boil addition it would probably make sense at about 5 minutes. There are comments in that recipe about the dry hop. I would just put the hops right in the carboy, maybe scale up the batch size a bit to compensate for the wort the dry hops will absorb.
     
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  5. Trialben

    Trialben Well-Known Member

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    When i looked at the grist i was thinking id add a good dash of wheat or oats into that to really prop up the mouth feel but.... that wouldnt be this beer;).
    Reading Mark's post made me realise this plus ive not drank that beer.
    But to the OP if your trying to replicate that recipie theyve done a great job laying it out for you.
    Id take the advice above an throw the hops in late.
    Man i was even looking at the amounts of boil 60min hops thinking id push some of them more to the middle of the boil. But im gathering its got a firm bitterness to it this beer.

    My biggest take would be reducing oxidation obviously to keg as this will provide you the best bang for your buck with all them hops.

    Could even try some potassium metabisulfite add at packaging to scavenge some oxygen for you (thats if your ok with sulfites in your beer);)
     
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  6. beer1965

    beer1965 Active Member

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    That's helpful - thanks so much!
     
  7. beer1965

    beer1965 Active Member

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    Mark - thanks for the reply. It's a rabbit hole of ideas. Like most I've grown up liking a good beer, drank it and didn't think much of it. Learning to brew has taken my beer experience to a new level. I now think more about every one I drink. I am getting better at understanding how the hops have been used, relative bitterness, how it's cloudy, amount of CO2 used, think if I can guess the mash used and on it goes.. It's been a great experience. Your note is giving me perspective on the east/west coast divide. I've heard about it, but not thought to look it up and your reply puts some of that picture in place for me. Thanks for sharing! I think I'll make it more traditional and see how it goes. Thanks for your help. Frank!
     
  8. beer1965

    beer1965 Active Member

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    Thanks for this. I've read a little about PM but haven't really gotten my head around to understand it's purpose. Does it act as a preservative? Is that it's point? I don't have any today so I will keep it in mind for a future brew. And I don't' have a keg yet and have thought about setting that up but then thought I wasn't sure if I wanted to go down that rabbit hole. It's one of those things - where do you stop! :)
     
  9. beer1965

    beer1965 Active Member

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    #9 beer1965, Apr 19, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2020
    Hey Mark - before I brew this another dumb question. It has boil volume of 6.6g and volume of 5.3g. That means to imply that 10.3lb of grain bill will only absorb 1.3g of water before I go to boil. Does that seem right? I feel like that seems low. Just double checking so I don't screw this up. Thanks!

    EDIT - an old post on this site said that in mash you lose 0.125 quart of water during mash per gallon. So if I want a pre boil volume of 6.3g with a 10.3g grainbill then I start mash with 6.3g plus (10lbx.125) 1.3g or 7.6g of water. That make sense?
     
  10. Trialben

    Trialben Well-Known Member

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    Scavanges Oxygen from the beer reducing oxidation once beer is packaged.
     
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  11. Mark Farrall

    Mark Farrall Well-Known Member

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    The edit comment looks right. I think the first 1.3 gallon you picked out was boil off and equipment losses and the recipe ignored the mash volumes.

    I'm awful with the imperial units. so just did a quick import of the recipe and could easily have screwed up a conversion. On my current system I'd need 7g water total. 5g for mash in (I mash really thin at around 4 l/kg), sparge with 2g. Start boil at 6.4g, so I lost 0.6g to grain absorption. I'd then lose 0.6g to the boil and 0.45g to hop and equipment losses to get to 5.3g into the fermenter.
     
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  12. Trialben

    Trialben Well-Known Member

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    Easy with metric pretty much 1kg grain = 1lt absorbsion.
     
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  13. Hawkbox

    Hawkbox Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I would use metric if possible, the numbers work a lot nicer.
     
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  14. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    Metric makes so many things so much easier.... Now if I could only convince 330 million Americans of this.
     
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  15. beer1965

    beer1965 Active Member

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    Hey Mike - back at this. I'm delaying this boil until I get this right. Thanks for your help. I ended up buying a new clawhammer electric 10g system recently and want to dial everything in before I do my first brew with it.

    I looked up your comment about mashing "thin". A question about that. I'm going to not sparge and put all my water in at the start when it's at temp - so 7.6g - add the full grain bill of 10.3lbs and then turn on the circulating pump from bottom of kettle to top of lid and do everything else normally. Doing that I'm based on your math very thin. That's 28.8L/4.7k or 6.2l/k. based on your comment I'm thinking I'm going to screw something up this way. Thoughts?
     
  16. Mark Farrall

    Mark Farrall Well-Known Member

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    I've got a system very similar to that one. Your approach is not going to screw things up and I do that more often than not. The term is full volume mashing or no sparge, if you want to google other opinions.

    Generally it means you aren't as efficient in your mashing process. When you pull the grain out you leave a fair bit of sugar attached to the grains. The sparge step would normally rinse some of that sugar off and put it back into the wort. Though I still get decent efficiency in the 70-75% range with full volume mashes, probably more to do with milling the grains fairly fine as the basket lets you get away with that.

    You can also leave the grain basket dripping while you're coming to a boil to get more wort, though it can get in the way a bit, so I don't bother. I've seen other people leave the grain basket dripping in another clean bucket. Then they just add the extra wort back into the kettle just before boiling.

    I don't mind the loss of efficiency. At the end of the day I'm spending a few extra cents on grains and I don't have to bother with the sparging step. For a first batch you may want to assume lower efficiency (65-70%) as it's so much easier to just dilute the wort at the end of the boil if you end up with better efficiency than stuffing around with DME to try and bring it up to the right number if you get lower efficiency.
     
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  17. Craigerrr

    Craigerrr Well-Known Member

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    Great post Mark, the goal is not maximum efficiency, the goal is consistency, and just "knowing" what your efficiency is. Clawhammer has tons of videos brewing on their system. Great looking system. Brew a batch and calculate your loss(s), adjust for next time. Or, heck, give them a call and ask them what their losses, and their efficiencies are.
     
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  18. beer1965

    beer1965 Active Member

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    Thanks - if I finished the boil, then cool it, how do you add water or DME without having to boil again to sterilize. Or do you just do that - bring it back to aboil for five minutes after adding?
     
  19. beer1965

    beer1965 Active Member

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    Good idea.. never thought that the system itself drives the loss. Thanks Craig. Will post as I figure this out and dial it in.
     
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  20. Mark Farrall

    Mark Farrall Well-Known Member

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    I check the gravity at the end of the mash so I'll have a good idea what's likely to happen. These days I don't bother adjusting either way, just update the recipe for next time. But when I did adjust I'd boil some water separately if it's looking like being over and add that to the kettle at the end of the boil. If it was under I'd mix in the DME near the end of the boil. A refractometer makes this very easy. It'd be a pain in the arse with a hydrometer.
     

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