Hitting a Specific Water profile while Hitting also Specific

Discussion in 'General Brewing Discussions' started by ramgeva, Oct 8, 2013.

  1. ramgeva

    ramgeva New Member

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    Hi All
    First I'm a newb and also new to this Forum.
    I saw the Water Calculator here and it look very good but i have few questions:
    1. How do you use this Clac to Match a Certain water profile and PH at the same time because if you want
    to hit a certain water profile you need to do some salt additions but this will also affect PH and for PH adjustment you also need to do the same it contradictdict one another so how do you manage to Balance between the two?
    2. Where can I find more target profiles? I mean how do I know what the water profile should be according to the Beer Color (I understand this is the correlation needed according to John.P)? For example I have a light Beer of about 6 SRM and the profile in CALC is only for 2-5.

    Thanks
     
  2. LarryBrewer

    LarryBrewer Active Member

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    Re: Hitting a Specific Water profile while Hitting also Spec

    Matching the pH and the profile is up to you. In terms of salts - Baking Soda and Chalk raise pH, the others lower it. I would dial in the mineral profile first. At that point if the pH is too high, add acidulated malt to the grain bill or add acid. The Mash Chemistry and Brewing Water Calculator handles all these scenarios and their combined effect.

    A complete list of target profiles is here:
    http://www.brewersfriend.com/brewing-wa ... -profiles/

    An SRM of 6 is not too far outside the range of 2-5, so I would not worry about that particular example. In general, SRM is an estimate of the grain bill. Our calculator is capable of using the actual grain bill and understands more about what is going on inside the mash.

    For your light beer, I'd choose either Balanced Profile I, Light and Malty or Light and Hoppy depending on what I was shooting for flavor wise.
     
  3. ramgeva

    ramgeva New Member

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    Re: Hitting a Specific Water profile while Hitting also Spec

    Thanks Larry
    So first I will adjust the minerals to the water profile than if still the predicted PH (does the predicted PH take into account the minerals addition?) still not as required use acidic malt to fix? Can I use also lactic or it will affect the minerals?
    Thanks very much for the help
     
  4. LarryBrewer

    LarryBrewer Active Member

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    Re: Hitting a Specific Water profile while Hitting also Spec

    Yes, salt additions are part of the predicted mash pH. Yes from there you can use acidulated malt, lactic acid, or both. I find acidulated malt is easier to manage for me. Just keep it below 4% of the grain bill, usually 1-2% does the trick.
     
  5. ramgeva

    ramgeva New Member

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    Re: Hitting a Specific Water profile while Hitting also Spec

    Great thanks a lot it is a huge help
     
  6. ramgeva

    ramgeva New Member

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    Re: Hitting a Specific Water profile while Hitting also Spec

    Hi Larry
    I did as you suggested and I got this water profile (After PH Correction):

    Actual Delta
    Ca+2 67.0 +7.0 (Green)

    Mg+2 26.5 +21.5 (Red)

    Na+ 95.0 +85.0 (Red)

    Cl- 90.0 -3.0 (Green)

    SO4-2 243.0 +188.0 (Red)

    HCO 0.574 +0.6 (Green)

    As you can see some parameters dotargetsuite the traget water profile, how can i fix it?

    10x
     
  7. LarryBrewer

    LarryBrewer Active Member

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    Re: Hitting a Specific Water profile while Hitting also Spec

    Please save the water calculator session - at the very bottom of the water calculator there is a section for that. It will generate a URL. Post the link here so we can play with it.

    Looks like something is out of balance, either too much of some of the salts, or your starting water is not capable of hitting the target profile.
     
  8. ramgeva

    ramgeva New Member

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    Re: Hitting a Specific Water profile while Hitting also Spec

    Hi
    here is the URL:
    http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemi ... id=8X5KC2J
    I didn't added any Salts as each slinfluencence not the desirmineralradjustmentent.

    I also have some question how the added Lactic Acid is greater in the Mash (5.87 ml) than in the Sparge (3.94ml) ? As Mash influenced by the Grain Bill that reduced it to PH 5.7~ so from this to 5.4 is not so much but for the sparge it is from original PH 8 to 5.4, so how is the lactic acid addition is greater in the Mash?
    And what is the Max percentage of Lactic Acid addition (I have 7.2% is it OK)?

    Thanks a lot for the Help
     
  9. LarryBrewer

    LarryBrewer Active Member

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    Re: Hitting a Specific Water profile while Hitting also Spec

    That helps a lot!

    Salts are used to increase mineral levels but in this case, that isn't doing any good. The only way to decrease mineral levels is to dilute with distilled or RO (reverse osmosis) water. The other option is to start from scratch with distilled or RO water and build up from there by adding salts. It depends on how your water smells and tastes, since that will determine the base for your beer.

    You would need to dilute your water by a large amount to take it from where it is currently to the target. For example, the target profile has a Na value of 10, but your water is 95. Not that the extra Na is a huge problem, but it is something to take note of. What is more concerning to me is the concentration of sulfates (SO4). This makes the water suited to bitter beers like IPAs. So, if you want a light beer, you will need to dilute with distilled water. The calculator can handle blended water sources starting in the first box.

    As for the mash pH, I would only bother with adding the lactic acid to the mash unless you are fly sparging and really worried about the pH of the wort in the kettle. 7.3% is higher than recommended. From the docs: It is recommend that brewers keep the total lactic acid level under 5% to avoid a flavor impact from the excessive lactate present in the final beer.
     
  10. ramgeva

    ramgeva New Member

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    Re: Hitting a Specific Water profile while Hitting also Spec

    Thanks Larry
    Does RO water have all it's minerals at 0 ? What will be the values for the source B water in this case?
    Regarding the sparge PH it isn't important?
    Only if I fly sparge?
    What about the Lactic Acid amount to each water is it reasonable to have more for the sparge water than to the mash?

    Thanks a lot for your help
     
  11. LarryBrewer

    LarryBrewer Active Member

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    Re: Hitting a Specific Water profile while Hitting also Spec

    As for the RO water it should be pretty pure, but you'd need to check with the source to be sure. You would enter those values into source water B.

    Sparge water pH is not that important unless you are fly sparging and are really worried about the pH of the runnings going into the kettle as you rinse the grains. Mash pH is far more important because it has to do with conversion efficiency.The sparge step is normally done at a higher temperature which is favors dissolving the sugar.

    The calculator is right in terms of how much lactic acid to add to each part (if you are doing both). Keep in mind the grains change the pH of the solution, which is why there are differences. However, the combined amount your scenario came up with was above the 5% recommended threshold for taste in the final beer.
     
  12. ramgeva

    ramgeva New Member

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    Re: Hitting a Specific Water profile while Hitting also Spec

    Thanks a lot Larry
     
  13. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    Re: Hitting a Specific Water profile while Hitting also Spec

    Ram, do I understand you're new to brewing? If so, here's my advice on water: If it tastes good and isn't too hard, brew with it as is. Work on your processes and your sanitation first, reasonably decent water isn't going to be a problem for you. If your water is bad, dilute it half-half with distilled water, the cheapest you can find, and brew with it. Water chemistry is about one of the last things to take up and if you're having problems, one of the last places to look. You may be interested in controlling all aspects of the process from the start but where you are is like trying to perform a violin concerto the day after you first pick up a bow. If you're using RO water, put a tablespoon of gypsum in it and brew, for starter brews, all you really need is over 40 ppm of calcium. And enjoy - you'll be geeking around with water soon enough. For now, learn process and sanitation.
     

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