Finally, from scratch

As Bob says, it's not that important in a standard pull the bag and start the boil BIAB appoach. That will denature any enzymes fairly quickly. Though it's not related to pulling the bag, it's related to starting the boil so soon after finishing the mash.

The high mash out is for processes where there's a decent break before starting the boil and you don't want your wort to become more fermentable by letting the enzymes still in the wort do their job.
 
Zambezi Special said:
Frankly, I have no idea!
My instructions in the first batch all grain said so, and since I didn't think it could do any harm, I repeated it.
I don't think it is really mashing out. I just put the kettle back on the stove and when the liquid was 77 oC, I immediately removed the bag and let the liquid drain from the bag and then squeezed out as much as possible
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At our scale, there's really no need for a mash-out. If you're a big brewer trying to make the same flavorless swill every time, it's important to freeze the wort at the point where its parameters match those of all previous batches. Not so much for us. If the enzymes consume a few more grams of starch, we just end up with better conversion efficiency. Not much effect on flavor, either. So I don't do it, one less thing to do on a brew day. Now the entire fly sparge thing, might be necessary because you're sparging for a much longer time. Me, I just take the extra percent or two of efficiency from not mashing out as a make-up for the point or two I lose by batch sparging (another great time saver....).
 
Nosybear said:
At our scale, there's really no need for a mash-out. If you're a big brewer trying to make the same flavorless swill every time, it's important to freeze the wort at the point where its parameters match those of all previous batches. Not so much for us. If the enzymes consume a few more grams of starch, we just end up with better conversion efficiency. Not much effect on flavor, either. So I don't do it, one less thing to do on a brew day. Now the entire fly sparge thing, might be necessary because you're sparging for a much longer time. Me, I just take the extra percent or two of efficiency from not mashing out as a make-up for the point or two I lose by batch sparging (another great time saver....).
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Just to side track a little, I notice that some homebrewers vorlauf with a pump and a sparge head to clear the beer. Do you think this would be necessary or is it more an anaesthetic thing?
 
Lord Callahad said:
Just to side track a little, I notice that some homebrewers vorlauf with a pump and a sparge head to clear the beer. Do you think this would be necessary or is it more an anaesthetic thing?
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An anaesthetic thing? Isn't that what the alcohol is for? :D

Clearing the wort is more aesthetic than anything else. Some argue you want to keep the trub out of the fermentor as much as possible, others think it's good to pour everything in, and others will tell you your beer is DOOMED if you get a particle of hot break in the fermentor. My take, clear it as best you can without splashing too much. Before I got my pump and kettle with a whirlpool port, I used a pitcher to recirculate. I probably got more damage to the beer from oxidation through pouring the wort back into the mash tun than I saved by wanting clear wort. Given my experience, I'd say clear wort in the fermentor is largely aesthetic. Others will disagree.
 
Vorlauf is something ive done once on first all grain i ever brewed in a cooler because the literature said too. Introduce Biab it's Not Applicable man and if I did brew in a tun I'd skip it either way as my end wort is transfered hops break material and all Into the fermentor.
I'm not phased by a little debris in my wort it's in my beer I don't want any floaties.
 
I do mash in a tun, but use a brew bag,, so don't Vorlauf either.
 
Now that I have a pump, I vorlauf. In fact, I circulate the wort through the RIMS tube throughout the mash. No separate vorlauf step is needed. I can't tell that it improves my beer. I'm more worried about oxidation using this process but I like having clear wort immediately after sparging. Everything is a trade off and I don't have the equipment to measure some effects so I'm flying as blind as anyone else.
 
I still vorlauf into pitcher and lauter over/through a spaghetti strainer over top of the grain bed for first runnings and then do the same for mashout. Although I don’t look for completely clear wort, I do run maybe a quart or so for first runnings and less than a quart for mashout.

I never subscribed to the LODO process as it would have required me to spend more money and effort than I though it was worth.

I’m now thinking I might try a no vorlauf/lauter one time as an experiment to see if it effects efficiency. If it doesn’t, I’ll just skip the step altogether as @Trialben said, it doesn’t matter if some grains make it to the boil kettle as they are screened out with a hop filter between the boil kettle and the fermenter when transferring to fermenter anyway.
 
Lord Callahad said:
When you guys say you are worried about oxidation, surely that doesnt matter pre fermentation. I thought you were supposed to oxygenate the wort!
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I completely agree, but there are those out there, mostly in the LODO world, thank approach brewing with minimizing oxygen throughout the brew day with the exception of prior to yeast Pitch.
 
Lord Callahad said:
When you guys say you are worried about oxidation, surely that doesnt matter pre fermentation. I thought you were supposed to oxygenate the wort!
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We're talking about hot side oxidation, may dull the malt flavor. Oxidation, like any reaction, happens faster when the reactants are hot. Note I used the word "may" and I brew a lot of lighter, more subtle beers that rely on the malt flavors so I take precautions. Think of it as risk management, there's no guarantee the oxidation will happen but none that it won't, so I mitigate. I use Brewtan B - the stuff is cheap - and try to avoid splashing hot wort. LODO seems too much like magic to me, do this or your beer is DOOMED, but a few sensible precautions seem to make sense.
 
Nosybear said:
We're talking about hot side oxidation, may dull the malt flavor. Oxidation, like any reaction, happens faster when the reactants are hot. Note I used the word "may" and I brew a lot of lighter, more subtle beers that rely on the malt flavors so I take precautions. Think of it as risk management, there's no guarantee the oxidation will happen but none that it won't, so I mitigate. I use Brewtan B - the stuff is cheap - and try to avoid splashing hot wort. LODO seems too much like magic to me, do this or your beer is DOOMED, but a few sensible precautions seem to make sense.
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Wow, have been reading a lot of stuff on homebrew but never come across this. Thanks for info, I must have a deeper look into it.
 
I don't do anythign special personally, I try to leave the hop material in the kettle but that's mostly so I don't have to deal with it in the fermenter. I have not found any special trick to consistently make clear beer beyond lagering so I don't worry to much about it.
 
I totally forgot to update this thread with a picture of the finished beer (and in the meantime, this batch of beer is finished. Had the last one yesterday)
IMG_20190913_184712.jpg


I was pretty happy with it and will definitely try this same recipe again.
I had some Duvel and La Chouffe to compare them with and definitely different but in no ways less nice (pat on my own back)

Next batch is going to take some time as I am in the process of packing up my lodge and house to move to a different location.
 
Zambezi Special said:
I totally forgot to update this thread with a picture of the finished beer (and in the meantime, this batch of beer is finished. Had the last one yesterday)
View attachment 7892

I was pretty happy with it and will definitely try this same recipe again.
I had some Duvel and La Chouffe to compare them with and definitely different but in no ways less nice (pat on my own back)

Next batch is going to take some time as I am in the process of packing up my lodge and house to move to a different location.
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Wow looking bloody splendid Zambizi good luck with the relocation.
 
Glad it all worked out, nice looking beer, and nice froth up top!
 
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