Efficiency

Discussion in 'Feature Requests' started by Hobbes, Feb 12, 2018.

  1. Hobbes

    Hobbes Member

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    I think the brewhouse eff is a little hard to understand out the gate... there is no way to edit the "mash eff" directly, and that's the only thing that can vary on my setup to someone elses who have the same losses for kettles/hoses. It would be nice to have an estimated mash eff, then have the brewhouse eff be calculated based on the loses of my equipment profile (dead space, hoses, into fermenter losses etc). I think entering the "into fermenter" or "ending kettle" volume is cheating a little. If i enter the 'ending kettle' then my "est boil size" should be auto-filled from my loses and boil off rate in my profile
     
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  2. Hobbes

    Hobbes Member

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    Disregard this, it shouldn't be necessary if the volumes in the profile are taken into account. Adjusting brewhouse eff should only be adjusting the mash eff, the rest are known in equip profile defined as losses in the system.

    I'm not seeing exact results though, as the pre-boil, mash additions, and some other items are not based on calculations but rather user inputs right now.
     
  3. Hobbes

    Hobbes Member

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    back on this.... i found i have to set ending to "kettle" because the equipment dead spaces, boil off, and other items don't seem to be taken into consideration for OG, IBU, or pre boil vol. I made a separate thread for this but wanted to mention here if anyone is having similar issue it's easier for now to just set your recipe based on ending kettle volume.
     
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  4. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    I'm not sure what the issue is. For post-boil gravity, that is a function of boil off (not time), but the IBUs are a function of time and temperature. I can't reproduce this with my equipment set up and recipes, as they are fine with preboil SG and OG.
     
  5. Hobbes

    Hobbes Member

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    Does your OG change if you go from kettle to fermenter while keeping the batch size the same? That should raise or lower the OG by how much deadspace and misc losses you have. It appears to stay the same, as if it either doesnt trigger a refresh/update or it no longer is grabbing equip details as if "no equip". I tried making a crazy new profile with rediculous losses and switching/refreshing but see the same behavior.

    I bet either these got uncoupled in an update or maybe nobody paid too much attention. If your switching from another software you might just adj the eff to get everthing to line up. My issue was starting over with a new recipe and new equipment on a heavy beer (RIS) that i noticed the OG was pretty far off from my intial guestimate while trying to use new equipment profile.
     
  6. snew

    snew New Member

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    I too have noticed the OG has been way off and it doesn’t change based on boil time. Yooper you would be correct except for boil off is determined by qt/hr in the equipment profile. Therefore, the OG should change based on boil time. I’ve noticed it does not. I tried putting the numbers in the boil off calc and it said I needed 1.5 boil to reach the predicted OG. I only like to boil for an hour so the predicted OG should change based on my imputed boil time.
     
  7. Hobbes

    Hobbes Member

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    I think a lot of the things that I had assumed
    A lot of the things I assumed were variables int he recipe calc appear to be display only... the boil time, evap rate, all those are just for display only as far as I can tell. The IBU does change when pre-boil is adjusted, but nothing else (this may be better to be selectable as "use equipment boil off rate" or input manually, as pre-boil should be = batch size + ferm loss + kettle loss + evap rate + hop absoption - shrinkage).

    For now i'm just using other software to develop recipe's then copying them over here and justing all the "display" values to be what the recipe calculator got me. This allows me to use the "brew day" and label generator from this site. If they can get the recipe editor fixed up to allow formulation of recipes easier then i'd be a happy camper as the interface is very intuitive.
     
  8. Hobbes

    Hobbes Member

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    If you change the batch from "kettle" to "fermenter" does anything change? That's a hint that something is off... because a recipe formulated for "ending fermenter" would include kettle losses. For example, you have "5.5 gallons" in there as kettle because you have 0.5 gallons of loss transferring to fermenter. But say you toggle to "fermenter"... that would include your equipment kettle loss of 0.5 so the actual ending kettle is now "6 gallons" which translates to 5.5 into the fermenter. You went from 5.5g to 6g in the kettle but did not adjust any grains... your OG and IBU should change due to the extra half gallon of water present. This should cause you to add grains/hops to account for the extra 1/2 gallon of wort you'll be losing. We're not calculating the recipe according to 5 gallons in the fermenter, we're calculating the recipe according to the total volume of water left before transfer, then the BH efficiency numbers would change as you lose wort going to the fermenter.

    ... maybe another way to explain, if you have 5g in the kettle and toggle it to "fermenter" nothing changes. If i read your recipe as "5g in fermenter" i would make sure my pre-boil volume was enough to leave me with 5.5g in the kettle so i'd have 5g in the fermenter. Of course i'd check your equipment to see before brewing, but i'd want to translate the recipe that gives me the same OG wort and then adjust volumes so i get a full fermenter.

    Another scenario... i have a pilsner that I decided to start boiling for 90 mins instead of 60. Adjusting this value doesn't do anything... I change boil time from 90 to 60 and pre-boil is the same volume because it's a static user-supplied value.

    I also suspect the BH eff calc doesn't take into account the equipment profile settings... i added 20gallons of mash tun dead space and kettle space and my OG/IBU didn't change... i would assume my eff numbers would be negative and/or break if i'm brewing a 5 gallon batch and have 20gallons of dead space.

    I love the interface.. it's great, but i think some works needs to be done to reliably use it for recipe formulation. When you generate a recipe you want software that accounts for the equipment losses and efficiencies. It works fine if you know your losses/settings and manage to find a combination that works. Eg, if i set it for 6.5 kettle and 78% eff it seems to match my old keggle setup fine for OG and IBU calcs. But when going to a new setup with 20g kettles and different losses the numbers were way off... i had to use another recipe software to get my bearings, then transfer the settings here... 6.5kettle with 85% eff works most of the time but IBU is slightly off. My new setup is getting between 85-90% mash eff and my old setup got closer to 80%.

    It would be good if i could copy someone else's recipe and toggle the equipment profile over and get the same product in a glass. Eg, someone has a "5g into fermenter" recipe but dumps their kettle right into the ferm so they have a "5g kettle" value and a "6.2g pre-boil" due to their 1.2g boil off rate. When I copy this recipe and change equipment to my profile with 1.5g/h boil off and 1/2 kettle losses i'd see a "5.5g kettle" and "7g pre-boil" value to hit. We'd both get the same result out of the fermenter for a 5g batch.
     
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  9. KC

    KC Active Member

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    I think that's the root of the problem. Each BF recipe is uniquely specific because 'batch size' and 'boil size' variables are manually set at the top. The recipe editor doesn't factor equipment profile data.

    E.g. If I try to brew your cream ale recipe, I have to copy it and scale it down to 6 gallons. When I do that, BF ignores my equipment profiles, setting preboil to 7.5 gallons and efficiency to 70% by default. But my equipment does 80% efficiency and would need a 6.8 gallon preboil size. I can't update those to match without butchering the recipe stats. I'd end up having to rewrite your recipe entirely.
    This was an issue for me when I replaced my brew setup. None of my existing recipes could be ported from the old profile to the new one. I've been reformulating them manually, and I had over 50!

    BF has an awesome sharing feature but it's not useful when shared recipes can't be brewed on a different system.
     
  10. snew

    snew New Member

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    I went back and looked at the same recipe on my old software to compare numbers. Old software predicted exactly what I got when I brewed this time. BF had all my volumes, and pre gravity spot on but post boil OG predicted 8 points high...curious.
     
  11. Hobbes

    Hobbes Member

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    I bet if you fix up the BH eff until your OG matches then you'll be set... i think the best use is to set ending "kettle" since the kettle lo
    I bet if you set ending kettle instead of ferm (since kettle losses are not used) then adjust BH eff to match the OG then the rest of the numbers will line up. I think this software works best with people who don't have a lot of losses and brew "5 gallon batches" but don't care too much about 1/2 gallon here/there or 1-2 points gravity.

    I've found if I set my BH number to whatever arbitrary number matches then the recipe appears "correct" for OG and close enough for IBU. I know BH efficiency should include all your losses and represent your total brewhouse eff including kettle losses and fermenter losses etc, but this software falls just a tad short of that part. Adjust that BH to get the OG correct and that is the number you need for here. Ideally you'd have all your losses set and by adjusting BH eff would be toggling your mash eff because all the other vars are static. Since you prob know your mash eff you can just toggle BH to match OG and hopefully everything falls in line. It seems to be less of a problem for 5g batches than it is for 15g batches.
     
  12. Hobbes

    Hobbes Member

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    Yeah.. that's exactly what i was thinking. I make a lot of recipes by browsing what others have done and figuring out what i think i'd like. It'd be nice to import a recipe and know i'm tasting what the guy who created it intended and not some water downed or concentrated version. A few tweaks and i think BF could do this easily.

    And i second the issue with new equip... the major reason I noticed such issues with recipe formulation was that I built a new setup and had issues trying to dial it in. Nothing seemed to match up until i gave a go at another software package and came back to line stuff up.
     
  13. KC

    KC Active Member

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    I was thinking about what a better scaling script should do

    1. lock OG, IBU, boil time, fermentable %'s, IBU contribution of each hop addition
    2. user input desired batch size and use OG to calculate total sugar content in fermenter
    3. add back transfer losses/dead space for water and sugar based on equipment profile
    4. add back boiloff based on rate in equipment profile, calculate diluted preboil gravity
    5. use the new preboil values to scale amount of each hop addition to maintain IBU contribution
    6. add back lauter dead space losses for water and sugar based on equipment profile
    7. Use sparge effectiveness (new profile variable) plus grain absorption setting in a formula to work out: grain weight, water and sugar losses to grain. Add water and sugar to running totals
    8. Use mash efficiency (new profile variable) convert total converted sugar to max sugar potential
    9. scale fermentables using %'s and PPG to meet max sugar potential
    It is a little complicated but certainly feasible. I may even try it out in excel on my recipes if it can save me some time from rewriting every one.
     
  14. Hobbes

    Hobbes Member

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    Agree'd ... this seems to be the gist of it. Having a mash eff and losses/deadspace calcs would be a home run.

    Not sure how much sparge effectiveness would be; i would prob just lump that in with mash eff; though I did like that BH could tell me my mash eff by showing me the SG content of my mash based on mash water; then i could find out my lauter eff with my pre-boil volume and SG. I'd be just as happy if it at least let me tell it my mash preboil vol & SG to get total mash/lauter effectiveness.

    But I think you're right on... we need to lock in the original recipe's OG/IBU and when scaling work around those numbers so that we end up with the same wort into a fermenter regardless of how much/little wort we have in comparison when done.
     
  15. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    One thing that gets me from time to time: When scaling, the recipe keeps the constants from the previous batches. I scale up, too little water (not a big problem). I scale down, too much (a somewhat bigger problem). I'd like the option of specifying the equipment profile to be used, if changed, when scaling.
     
  16. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    We are looking at this now. It's pretty detailed, but I appreciate the pointers and the direction you'd like to go.

    What dismays us is that you feel the need to use different software for formulation, and then use this software for brewing. We want to be a one-stop #1 software and we need to make this work.

    Please keep your criticisms and suggestions coming. It will help make us better!
     
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  17. jeffpn

    jeffpn Well-Known Member

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    I’ve mentioned it before, but the BF timer is unreliable. I step out of the app to use one that won’t show all zeros during the duration.
     
  18. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    Yes, we know that- and I also hate it. We are working on that one.
     
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  19. thunderwagn

    thunderwagn Well-Known Member

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    Water volume/ displacement levels calcs for your equipment would be excellent, especially for Biab'ers.
     
  20. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    I formulate on BF, then brew using my own timer and record sheets. I don't consider this a problem - I'm recording the variables I consider useful (and streamlining my brew day sheet as I go). Happy to share it to show what a true process geek records and how having it in one brew day report helps me brew.
     

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