Dry hops vs oxidation

Discussion in 'General Brewing Discussions' started by Markok, Jul 19, 2020.

  1. Markok

    Markok Member

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    My new favorite style is NEIPA. Done right the hop flavors and odors are amazing. This morning I added a 5 oz dry hop addition to my 5.5 gal batch. As oxidation is a huge concern for this style, particularly given that the hop pellets introduce O2 when added to wort, I have decided to introduce a single dry hop addition while fermentation is still active (1.021) and avoid a second or third dry hop addition nearer to FG. I believe this is my only vulnerable process because I then pressure transfer (with CO2) from fermentor to keg after purging keg with CO2. What are my fellow brewers take on this process? What are your experiences with oxidation and this style?
     
  2. Craigerrr

    Craigerrr Well-Known Member

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    I brewed one yesterday, pitched VOSS Kveik last evening, added first dry addition this morning at high krausen, will add second addition tomorrow while fermentation is still active. I have never had oxidization issues with this method.
     
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  3. HighVoltageMan!

    HighVoltageMan! Well-Known Member

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    Oxidation does happen with dry hopping, oxygen is added to the beer along with hops. The amount of oxidation is the variable.

    I don’t brew any NEIPA beers, they just don’t appeal to me, but I do brew IPA’s and pale ales. I have just recently tried something new, I spund the beer when I dry hop. I don’t think dry hopping at high Krausen is very beneficial, I prefer to dry hop when fermentation is done, the flavor and aroma are better in my opinion.

    So when I dry hop a beer, I add the hops and a cup of a simple sugar solution, I also add 1 teaspoon of 85% phosphoric acid to keep the pH in check (dry hopping raises the pH by .2-.4). Then I put a spunding valve on it right away, set the pressure to 25 PSI or so, and leave the temp at 64-68F. I get the yeast active again to scavenge the oxygen and the dry hop goes on for 3-4 days. I crash cool and within 24 hours of crash cooling I’m drinking it. If I want it clear, I will add gelatin finings 24 hours after crash cooling and leave the beer set for 48 hours to allow the beer to clear. I ferment, condition and serve in a 7.75 gallon Sanke keg that has a floating pick up.

    Using this method I can brew a beer, ferment it, dry hop it and drinking it in 8-9 days. I haven’t tried Kveik yeast yet, but that would shave of a day or two from kettle to glass.
     
  4. BOB357

    BOB357 Well-Known Member

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    I'm with you on the NEIPAs. I've tried several and only found a couple that I'd be able to drink a pint of. IMO, it'd be a lot easier to just brew a hop bomb and serve it mixed 50/50 with unfiltered fruit juice. The extreme sensitivity of the style to oxidizing tells me that it isn't meant to be. :):D:rolleyes:
     
  5. Markok

    Markok Member

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    Interesting. You wait until your beer has reached FG. You then encourage the yeast to go to work again by adding some sugar similar to priming for bottling. It seems to me that in either case the yeast is active while hops are present. As a side, this will be my third IPA that I transfer the hops canister from the fermenter into the keg and leave the beer on the hops until it’s all gone a few months later. I thought at first this would add a grassyness to the beer but it hasn’t. I’ve enjoyed the contribution of the hops exposure to the last drop.
    You also mention pH. Twice now I’ve made kettle soured beer that was then bottle conditioned. Both times the bottles failed to carbonate sufficiently. The second time I even popped all the tops, added some champagne yeast and recapped. Again insufficient carbonation. I can only conclude the pH had something to do with it. The pH was about 3.2. The yeast in both cases finished to the expected FG although it took them about 24 hours to become active.
     
  6. Markok

    Markok Member

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    Bob357 do you by chance know what it is about the NEIPA style that makes it so vulnerable to oxidation?
     
  7. BOB357

    BOB357 Well-Known Member

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    I have absolutely no idea. Since I don't like the style, there's no reason to ponder the subject..

    BTW, if you have seen my posts for any extended time period, you'd know that my last reply was tongue in cheek.
     
  8. Trialben

    Trialben Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure it's something to do with what's in that truckload of hops.
    And maybe less so the high amount of adjuncts Added as well.
     
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  9. Markok

    Markok Member

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    Well in any case I won’t attempt the style again if it oxidizes on me. Maybe I’ll get lucky.
     
  10. Craigerrr

    Craigerrr Well-Known Member

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    With all due respect to the very knowledgeable, and thoughtful responders above, I wonder why you might respond with advice about making a style of beer that you neither make, nor enjoy.

    Don't be discouraged Marok. It is not that difficult to make this style. I have had great success with it in recent history. Learning a little more with each attempt. With all of the interest in brewing this style, and the high number of threads being started by people such as yourself asking for advice, I will be creating a NEIPA thread with all of the knowledge I have gathered on the subject including links to helpful articles, and videos. This way when questions come up such as yours, I, or others can refer the poster to that thread.

    Oxidization can come from issues during fermentation, or poor packaging practices. It is very easily mitigated though, even with a NEIPA. Oxygen is also bad for hops. NEIPA is all about the hops, and therefore more sensitive to oxidization.
     
  11. HighVoltageMan!

    HighVoltageMan! Well-Known Member

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    I add only enough acid to drop the pH to about 4.3. Without the addition the pH climbs to +4.5, that lends to a harsher bitterness. My IPA’s and pale ale are brewed with similar methods as a NEIPA, but I stop short of making them hazy and super juicy. Lots of hop flavor and subdued bitterness.
     
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  12. Markok

    Markok Member

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  13. Markok

    Markok Member

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    Thanks Craigerrr. I appreciate the support. I’ll look forward to your thread.
     
  14. HighVoltageMan!

    HighVoltageMan! Well-Known Member

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    I’m not a big fan of this style, but the techniques from one style, especially one so similar can be applied to another. I’m in no way discouraging anyone from brewing this style, I’m trying to suggest ways to brew it to the desired effect.

    Oxidation is a problem with all beers, whether or not people acknowledge it or not. NEIPA’s are especially susceptible to oxygen ingress because of the large dry hop amounts and from the fact that hop aromas and flavors are the first to show the effects of oxygen ingress.
     
  15. Craigerrr

    Craigerrr Well-Known Member

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    I am sorry HV, I have nothing but respect for you, and your brewing knowledge and experience. You are also a very thoughtful and helpful responder on the forum, and I have benefitted from your input to my questions over the last couple of years.
     
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  16. Craigerrr

    Craigerrr Well-Known Member

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    @BOB357
    Please don't take offense to my earlier post, you have been very helpful to me these last couple years.
     
  17. Craigerrr

    Craigerrr Well-Known Member

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    Markok
    I see that you are new to Brewers Friend just this month, welcome.
    Are you a new brewer as well?
     
  18. Mark Farrall

    Mark Farrall Well-Known Member

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    So taking Craig's approach (which is the one I also use) you have an initial addition at peak fermentation. That one is getting used due to the ability of some yeast being able to transform certain hop oils from a herbal to fruity aroma/flavour. This relies on the hop creating the enzyme that can do this and a lot of yeast will not produce that enzyme. I also find it helps spread the load as one single addition tends to clog up the fermentor for a bit (though I could bag the addition and weight it down). And as HighVoltageMan mentions early additions have the downside of fermentation pushing more of the hop aromatics out of the beer compared to a late addition. So that early addition is a balancing act, more fruity hop oils, vs more hop aroma/flavour losses.

    And for your reasoning around the addition near the end, but when there's still fermentation, that makes perfect sense for the oxidation question. Yeast are probably the most effective oxygen scavengers we have access to as home brewers. I read recently that it's probably just minutes, or tens of minutes, for the yeast to be able to mop up all the oxygen in the liquid. (Some of the LODO brewers use bakers yeast to remove oxygen from their water before starting their mash).

    That said, there will be oxygen in the fermentor headspace from the dry hopping that will continue to dissolve into the beer, so some people will purge the fermentor headspace with CO2 when dry hopping. I don't bother. My beer's generally gone before I can notice any obvious oxidation problems (though I'm sure it would be less oxidised if I did purge).

    As to why, generally it's put down to the larger than normal post boil and dry hop additions and the newer hops themselves. All hops have a bunch of metal ions that are highly oxidative and the newer hops have higher levels. So adding far more hops than previously done adds far more highly oxidative metal ions that has been previously done. So the beer just sucks up any oxygen it's provided and turns that ugly brown colour. There's probably other reasons as well, but this is the one that I hear/read the most often.
     
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  19. HighVoltageMan!

    HighVoltageMan! Well-Known Member

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    #19 HighVoltageMan!, Jul 20, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2020
    No need to apologize, your point is valid. I forgot to mention that. Cheers and keep brewing those NEIPA's!

    Edit: I forgot to ask. Do you use Kveik yeast for NEIPA’s. If so, how do you like it for that style?
     
  20. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    Simple. Hops. Added late they bring oxygen to the party and that destroys the beer. It's a fragile style and I have tasted very few good ones.
     

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