Doubts on the use of "raw" (unmalted) wheat in Witbiers

[roychoar]

Hello community:
I am planing to produce a Witbier (BJCP 24A). In this style, BJCP states that 50% of the grist should be unmalted wheat.

My question is: ¿ will the unmalted wheat bring more or less the same amount of sugars of a malted wheat grain to the original gravity after the mash? According to Brewer´s Friend calculators, the unmalted wheat will in fact add 1036 gravity points, so I do not see a real difference.

Your advice will be greatly appreciated.
Best regards

Rogelio

 

[Donoroto]

Hello community:
I am planing to produce a Witbier (BJCP 24A). In this style, BJCP states that 50% of the grist should be unmalted wheat.

My question is: ¿ will the unmalted wheat bring more or less the same amount of sugars of a malted wheat grain to the original gravity after the mash? According to Brewer´s Friend calculators, the unmalted wheat will in fact add 1036 gravity points, so I do not see a real difference.

Your advice will be greatly appreciated.
Best regards

Rogelio

I am speculating that the sugars will be about the same. But you must have the enzymes available in the mash to convert the starches to sugars.

Unmalted wheat does not have these enzymes, so the 'other' 50% of the grain bill needs to be malted.

Unmalted wheat adds a grain flavor not found in malted wheat. Subtle but discernable.

 

[roychoar]

I am speculating that the sugars will be about the same. But you must have the enzymes available in the mash to convert the starches to sugars.

Unmalted wheat does not have these enzymes, so the 'other' 50% of the grain bill needs to be malted.

Unmalted wheat adds a grain flavor not found in malted wheat. Subtle but discernable.

Thanks! I will take care of including the remaining 50% with something like Pils as usually adviced.
Regards, rogelio

 

[Minbari]

From what i can see, the amount of sugar that malted, unmalted, vs barley is about that same.

Diastatic power is not zero with wheat, but no where near barley. There are more glutans and protein content with what too. Part of why wheat beers usually remain cloudy and have good head retention

 

[roychoar]

From what i can see, the amount of sugar that malted, unmalted, vs barley is about that same.

Diastatic power is not zero with wheat, but no where near barley. There are more glutans and protein content with what too. Part of why wheat beers usually remain cloudy and have good head retention

Thanks! So according to your answer and the previous one, I would be fine with the other 50% of the grist based on malted barley to get the necessary enzimes for the mash step.

Best regards, Rogelio

 

[Minbari]

Ooh yes. I make a hefewietzen that is 50% wheat

 

[roychoar]

Ooh yes. I make a hefewietzen that is 50% wheat

This will be my first batch with unmalted wheat. I was worried about the original density of the mash and the ability of the yeast to work with potentially too many complex sugars if the enzimes of the barley are not enough to process the sugars in the wheat.

 

[GFHomebrew]

This will be my first batch with unmalted wheat. I was worried about the original density of the mash and the ability of the yeast to work with potentially too many complex sugars if the enzimes of the barley are not enough to process the sugars in the wheat.

Just keep an eye on it when mashing.
Check what the BF predicted pre boil is supposed to be and if need be extend the mash by half hour to achieve conversion.

 

[roychoar]

Just keep an eye on it when mashing.
Check what the BF predicted pre boil is supposed to be and if need be extend the mash by half hour to achieve conversion.

Hello Trialben:
Actually you have just raised one important point. According to BF´s recipe calculator, the preboil gravity would be around 1041 whereas the post boil gravity would be 1050. I do not feel comfortable with this forecast, since 9 points in 60 minutes of boil seems too much.
My preliminary recipe is https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/edit/1380279 if you want to take a look.

Thanks!

 

[Minbari]

This will be my first batch with unmalted wheat. I was worried about the original density of the mash and the ability of the yeast to work with potentially too many complex sugars if the enzimes of the barley are not enough to process the sugars in the wheat.

It may take longer, but it will do it. You can do a step mash too. Start at 147F for 30 minutes then ramp up to 152F. That will take full advantage of alpha and beta amylase enzymes.

One thing I do and really does work. Get a tincture of iodine. Drop of wort with a drop iodine in a dish. If the iodine turns black, then starch still exist. Wait longer

 

[GFHomebrew]

Hello Trialben:
Actually you have just raised one important point. According to BF´s recipe calculator, the preboil gravity would be around 1041 whereas the post boil gravity would be 1050. I do not feel comfortable with this forecast, since 9 points in 60 minutes of boil seems too much.
My preliminary recipe is https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/edit/1380279 if you want to take a look.

Thanks!

Yeah I get 6 points on the 60 min boil but that's on electric element which boils off less then propane or gas.

I used to get 10 ish points on the boil when I used gas.

It depends on what you've seen previously on your pre/post gravities have you seen 9 points from the boil?

Mate that recipe looks great I'd love to try the end product.

You know there's alot of unmalted grains in there you'll probably find you'll need to mash longer.

You could mash in at a beta Glucanase rest if your worried about the sticky mash I'd probably do this if your not BIAB.

A beta Glucanase rest at or around 122f will help with run off once the mash gets going in the saccrification rest.

But I over think things.

Let me know how you fare.

 

[Donoroto]

This will be my first batch with unmalted wheat.

One thing about mashing with wheat: it gets sticky. That means, water does not flow well through it. For a 5 gallon batch, I suggest using one pound of rice hulls to help avoid problems like a stuck mash.

Looks like a good recipe!

 

[roychoar]

It may take longer, but it will do it. You can do a step mash too. Start at 147F for 30 minutes then ramp up to 152F. That will take full advantage of alpha and beta amylase enzymes.

One thing I do and really does work. Get a tincture of iodine. Drop of wort with a drop iodine in a dish. If the iodine turns black, then starch still exist. Wait longer

Hello Don! Yes, I always resort to the iodine droplet to check whether starchs are still in the wort.

I believe that this recipe will need to be attempted many times before I find the best approach to it.

Thanks!

 

[roychoar]

One thing about mashing with wheat: it gets sticky. That means, water does not flow well through it. For a 5 gallon batch, I suggest using one pound of rice hulls to help avoid problems like a stuck mash.

Looks like a good recipe!

Hello Don:
I 100% trust my false bottom in order to face the stickyness of wheat. It endured without any problem many worts with 50% of malted wheat, and my circuits did not get clogged )

 

[roychoar]

Yeah I get 6 points on the 60 min boil but that's on electric element which boils off less then propane or gas.

I used to get 10 ish points on the boil when I used gas.

It depends on what you've seen previously on your pre/post gravities have you seen 9 points from the boil?

Mate that recipe looks great I'd love to try the end product.

You know there's alot of unmalted grains in there you'll probably find you'll need to mash longer.

You could mash in at a beta Glucanase rest if your worried about the sticky mash I'd probably do this if your not BIAB.

A beta Glucanase rest at or around 122f will help with run off once the mash gets going in the saccrification rest.

But I over think things.

Let me know how you fare.

Hello Trialben!
I do not remember 9 points in an hour (unfortunately I did not take notes), but I am pretty sure that 6 points can be achieved without a problem in one hour. That said, I will take my chances and learn from the first attempt.

Thanks!!

 

[GFHomebrew]

Hello Trialben!
I do not remember 9 points in an hour (unfortunately I did not take notes), but I am pretty sure that 6 points can be achieved without a problem in one hour. That said, I will take my chances and learn from the first attempt.

Thanks!!

Suck it and see method

 

[Megary]

Hello Trialben:
Actually you have just raised one important point. According to BF´s recipe calculator, the preboil gravity would be around 1041 whereas the post boil gravity would be 1050. I do not feel comfortable with this forecast, since 9 points in 60 minutes of boil seems too much.
My preliminary recipe is https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/edit/1380279 if you want to take a look.

Thanks!

**EDIT**

I've removed some of this post because I'm pretty sure it was wrong, though it might have been right.
I'm not 100% sure how Brewer's Friend makes some calculations.

But...

I guess the key here is to know - or at least have a pretty good idea of - your evaporation rate.

Remember:
Wort Gravity (pre-boil) * Wort Volume (pre-boil) = Wort Gravity (post-boil) * Wort Volume (post-boil)

Admittedly, getting exact volume readings can be a bit tough, so there can be a lot of inherent error in that equation.

 

[Minbari]

Brewer's Friend is calculating your post-boil gravity based on the value entered for "Boil Evaporation Rate" in your Equipment Profile.
My Brewing ---> My Equipment ---> "Boil Evaporation Rate"

If you think 9 points in 60 minutes is too high, then lower the value for BER.

I guess the key here is to know - or at least have a pretty good idea of - your evaporation rate.

Remember:
Wort Gravity (pre-boil) * Wort Volume (pre-boil) = Wort Gravity (post-boil) * Wort Volume (post-boil)

Admittedly, getting exact volume readings can be a bit tough, so there can be a lot of inherent error in that equation.

I always guess on the conservative side. Easy to add more water to bring gravity down

 

[Megary]

I always guess on the conservative side. Easy to add more water to bring gravity down

I just edited my above post because I think I assumed BF made calculations a certain way, but I'm not really sure. Actually, I'm pretty sure I was wrong.

Agree on adding water. Very easy to do.

A deeper dive, assuming you know your boil off rate, is to take your measured pre-boil volume and pre-boil gravity and calculate how long you would need to boil to hit your target gravity.

The formula for the effect of changing the boiling time on the gravity is: (stolen from Hitting Target Original Gravity and Volume - Brew Your Own (byo.com)

Δ time (in minutes) = (Pre-boil volume * (Target pre-boil gravity points – Actual pre-boil gravity points) * 60) / (Target pre-boil gravity points * Boiling losses per hour)

That's a great equation if your pre-boil gravity is off (up or down) by a few points and you want to change your boil time a little bit. Just remembering that any change in boil time will have an effect on volumes and hop schedules. I like to use that if I overshoot my pre-boil gravity, just to see how much time I can save myself on the boil. Of course, most homebrewers don't care if they are off by a few points one way or another.

Now If your pre-boil gravity is WAY off up or down, then adding water or extract/sugar is a better way to go.