DME vs. Fresh Mashed Wort for Starters

no its the chains of sugar and the gravity,
think of it this way your walking fast down a hall and suddenly all utilities turn off , it turns pitch black and goes from 70 to 80 in minutes, would you keep walking fast actually the same or would you stop adjust your eyes and walk slower. the hall is the same but also different and eventually you will continue on the same after adjusting
 
If you made a starter with 1.040 wort, then another 1.040 starter with dme made from your wort, how would the sugar chains and gravity differ? I'm sorry if I'm missing something.
 
it depends on what temperature the dme and the wort was mashed at to determine how many chains on the molecule, im really only talking about 6 to 12 hours difference, its really not a big deal, under perfect conditions you can get activity within 2 hours but most people don't. in order to get a fast fermentation your starter needs to be the same temp as your wort, and the same wort in your starter and at high krausen when pitching, then it wont lag as much
 
Gerry P said:
If you made a starter with 1.040 wort, then another 1.040 starter with dme made from your wort, how would the sugar chains and gravity differ? I'm sorry if I'm missing something.
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I don't believe it would. Maltose and maltotriose are the same whether rehydrated DME or a wort starter. Yeast don't know the difference.
 
Check out www.braukaiser.com he is a super scientific dude a geek brewer and he's done a heap of experiments on starters,starter stir plate speed ,temperature ,type of wort in starter ,I'm sure he tested cell growth with all malt / all sugar and even percentages of malt to sugar starters. He's done a detailed scale of cell growth with each experiment.
 
Gerry P said:
If you made a starter with 1.040 wort, then another 1.040 starter with dme made from your wort, how would the sugar chains and gravity differ? I'm sorry if I'm missing something.
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I would think it's a matter of the percentage of low fermentables (dextrins) vs. high fermentables (maltose). I'm sure it's more complex than that, but if I create my own wort I can create a wide range of sugar balances - anything from almost all maltose to 50% dextrin or more. That would make a significant difference in how the yeast would act. If I use a DME, I'm just going with whatever they created, and it's very unlikely to be exactly the same as my homemade wort.

My guess is that the DME I'm using has a low percentage of maltose, so even though the yeast is fermenting it, they're just not getting that fired up - whereas my mashes have tended to create a high percentage of maltose, so the yeast just parties on when they get in there.

Anyway, as I said, I'll do a RWS next time, and if I'm right then it should be much more vigorous than the DME starter.
 
Thurston Brewer said:
I would think it's a matter of the percentage of low fermentables (dextrins) vs. high fermentables (maltose). I'm sure it's more complex than that, but if I create my own wort I can create a wide range of sugar balances - anything from almost all maltose to 50% dextrin or more. That would make a significant difference in how the yeast would act. If I use a DME, I'm just going with whatever they created, and it's very unlikely to be exactly the same as my homemade wort.

My guess is that the DME I'm using has a low percentage of maltose, so even though the yeast is fermenting it, they're just not getting that fired up - whereas my mashes have tended to create a high percentage of maltose, so the yeast just parties on when they get in there.

Anyway, as I said, I'll do a RWS next time, and if I'm right then it should be much more vigorous than the DME starter.
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Thanks, that makes sense. Btw I think this thread is interesting because it seems to me that differences between rws and dme starters could also apply to extract vs. all-grain brewing.
 
My RWS starters are definitely more vigorous and active than those created from DME. I got 6 22 oz. bottles from my 1 gallon mash sealed up in the fridge, so I reckon I won't have to do that more than 3 times a year. Pretty easy :)
 
DME is wort dehydrated using a vacuum. It's ultimately unhopped wort. Since yeast is not finicky about sugar, I don't know where there would be an opportunity for one to start faster than the other - they're essentially the same thing. The vacuum dehydration process won't remove minerals, it's too cool to decompose vitamins or denature proteins, it's preservative-free. I'm not doubting your observations but at the same time, I don't see how there could be a difference since DME and wort are effectively the same thing. Canned wort undergoes a higher heat treatment than DME! The biggest advantage I could see to making your own wort for starters is it would be cheaper than DME.
 
Well, who knows. Could be something to do with the specific brand I guess. Your understanding is the same as mine, so there would seem to be no inescapable rule why DME couldn't make just as vigorous a starter as homemade wort.

I remember thinking the same thing 30 years ago - that beer brewed from extract should be just as good as beer brewed from grain since extract is just dehydrated (or semi-dehydrated) wort, but at that time there was no extract available that was even close to what I could create by mashing my own. I'm told that things are different now, but it just goes to show that DME is not necessarily the same as home extract, even if it should be so.

If I extract my own, I know what goes into it, and I can guarantee the quality of my process. No unknowns, and from my experience clearly more vigorous starters.

And, as you mention, it's cheaper.
 
Thurston Brewer said:
Well, who knows. Could be something to do with the specific brand I guess. Your understanding is the same as mine, so there would seem to be no inescapable rule why DME couldn't make just as vigorous a starter as homemade wort.

I remember thinking the same thing 30 years ago - that beer brewed from extract should be just as good as beer brewed from grain since extract is just dehydrated (or semi-dehydrated) wort, but at that time there was no extract available that was even close to what I could create by mashing my own. I'm told that things are different now, but it just goes to show that DME is not necessarily the same as home extract, even if it should be so.

If I extract my own, I know what goes into it, and I can guarantee the quality of my process. No unknowns, and from my experience clearly more vigorous starters.

And, as you mention, it's cheaper.
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The dry stuff (DME) shouldn't have a shelf life problem. The syrup does. If your LHBS doesn't go through extract fairly quickly, don't use it.
 
What happens when you use old LME?
 
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