Different pH Value in Recipe and Water Calculator

Discussion in 'Brewer's Friend Announcements & Updates' started by craftberarescu, Dec 12, 2018.

  1. craftberarescu

    craftberarescu New Member

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    Hi there!

    I noticed that the pH Value that is displayed in the recipe is different from the one that is calculated by the water calculator, with the same recipe loaded.
    Any idea what the problem could be?
     
  2. Craigerrr

    Craigerrr Well-Known Member

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    You have to enter your water volumes in the mash section of the recipe, when those volumes match the volumes in the water calculator they will give the same pH result.
     
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  3. craftberarescu

    craftberarescu New Member

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    Thanks for your reply. The water volumes are the same, but the pH still differs. Does the recipe calculator also calculate the salt additions when calculating mash pH? Or which calculator should I trust, the recipe or the water calculator?
     
  4. Craigerrr

    Craigerrr Well-Known Member

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    If you post the recipe, and some screen shots of your water calculator details, I bet I could help out.
    I had problems getting things to jive myself with the new update, but I since figured out how to get it to work.
     
  5. discmonkey

    discmonkey New Member

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    I have the same issue. It looks like recipe page is counting acid malt twice so the ph displayed on that page is considerably lower than in the water calculator.
     
  6. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    Can you give me a couple of screenshots of this, so I can get that to the developer? Thank you!
     
  7. discmonkey

    discmonkey New Member

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    Sure!

    Here is a view of the water calc after I have saved the recipe and created a new water calc. There is 5 oz. of acid malt added in as additional acid malt even though it is listed in the malt bill already, this additional acid malt field was pre-filled when the calc opened:

    [​IMG]

    Here I have removed the additional acid malt and added some lactic acid for a target ph of 5.39:

    [​IMG]

    I then saved the water calc, went back into the recipe and updated it, then saved it. This is what the ph shows as in both the edit and view modes:

    [​IMG]

    Going back into edit mode and accessing the existing water calc from the recipe shows that the additional acid malt is once again present, the field having been again pre-filled:

    [​IMG]

    Thanks for looking into this!
     
  8. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    I’m on the road currently but I’ll tag @avantassel and see if he can take a look. He’s a lot smarter than me anyway. :)
     
  9. Paddymc

    Paddymc New Member

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    I have this same problem, its wrecking my head. It used to work fine before the updates??
     
  10. Craigerrr

    Craigerrr Well-Known Member

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    Try looking at your water volumes, be sure they match in the recipe, and in the calculator.
    I once also had a mysterious acidulated malt appear in the grist list in the calculator that was not in the recipe. Drove me a little batty until I figured that out (probably did it to myself unwittingly).

    If these water volumes don't match, you will get different pH for each.

    Here is the water volume entered in the recipe
    recipe water.JPG

    Here is the water volume in the calculator
    calculator water.JPG
     
  11. I_playdrums

    I_playdrums Well-Known Member

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  12. discmonkey

    discmonkey New Member

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    Thanks for the suggestions! Unfortunately, in my situation the water volumes match and I am not accidentally adding acid malt.
     
  13. discmonkey

    discmonkey New Member

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    I'm just bumping this. It would be cool if there was some kind of follow-up at some point.
     
  14. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    I've tested and tested- and have not had this issue. What's going on with your issues? Can you give us a screenshot of the water calc and also the recipe estimate? I can't recreate any issues, and we need that in order to fix it I'm afraid. Any input you can give us will help us fix it ASAP.
     
  15. discmonkey

    discmonkey New Member

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    I provided some screenshots earlier in this thread. I can provide some more from another recipe tomorrow. Thanks!
     
  16. Medarius

    Medarius Active Member

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    #16 Medarius, Jan 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2019
    I had/have this issue with my recipes also.
    If I put Acid malt in my recipe the water calc would ad it twice, once in malt bill and then in Acid Addition table. I just edited recipe and removed acid malt to get water calc closer to correct. I put it down to using a Mac, since when I edit recipes on Mac, the yeast selection (until recent updates) would always show a default choice and not what I had entered.

    You are not alone disc monkey :)
    good luck
     
  17. discmonkey

    discmonkey New Member

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    Thanks, Medarius! :)

    Yooper - below are screenshots from two test recipes I created this morning. I am on a Windows computer and am using Google Chrome.

    Here is recipe #1 with acid malt in the grain bill. It has been saved and no water calc has been created yet. The estimated ph is listed as 5.31: 1-No Water Calc.PNG
    I created a new water calc for recipe #1 and there is 4 oz. of acid malt automatically included in the Acid Additions section, in addition to the acid malt in the grain bill:
    2-Link to Create New Water Calc.PNG

    I have deleted the acid malt from the Acid Additions section and the estimated ph is now 5.58. I saved the water calc:
    3-Remove Extra Acid Malt and Save.PNG

    I then updated the recipe and the estimated ph in the recipe is listed at 5.31 rather than 5.58: 4-Update Recipe and Save.PNG

    I saved the recipe, closed the browser window, came back, re-opened the recipe and the ph still said 5.31. So I went in to edit the water calc and the extra acid malt in the Acid Additions section was there again:
    5-Re-enter Water Calc.PNG

    I then created recipe #2, exactly the same but with no acid malt in the grain bill. The estimated ph is 5.85 before creating a water calc:
    6-Same Recipe No Acid Malt.PNG

    I created a new water calc, there was no errant acid malt in the Acid Additions section, and the estimated ph matched what the recipe stated before the water calc was created:
    7-Link To Create New Water Calc.PNG

    I added the same amount of acid malt to only the Acid Additions section and the new estimated ph was 5.57, right in line with recipe #1 (minus the errant acid malt that showed up in the water calc):
    8-Add Acid Malt as Acid Addition.PNG

    I saved the water calc and updated the recipe. The ph in the recipe matched the water calc this time:
    9-Update and Save.PNG

    So to me, as I mentioned in an earlier post, the issue seems to be that when acid malt is added to the grain bill in a recipe it shows up twice in the water calc, once in the grain bill and once in Acid Additions. Deleting this extra acid malt from the water calc doesn't seem to make it go away once the calc is saved and the recipe is updated.

    The obvious work around is not to add acid malt to the grain bill and just add it to the water calc. That's not a huge deal but the acid malt won't show up in the shopping list then so you also have to remember it or add it manually.

    [​IMG]
     
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  18. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    I'd go the other way around - add it to the grain bill (it contributes fermentables and color as well as acid), then use the acid equivalent in the water calculator. Either way it can confuse someone who isn't paying attention and I've struggled with it - it will be really confusing if someone adds acid malt to the water calculator and it doesn't show up on the recipe builder or vice versa. I think what's happening in the scenario above is one I've encountered: If I modify the acid malt contribution in the Water Calculator, it doesn't update the Recipe Builder. So the Water Calculator shows the effects of my modification of the amount of acid malt, then when I jump back to the Recipe Builder, nothing has changed. To me, I'd like to see any changes to acid malt written back to the Recipe Builder to keep the two in synch. My current work-around is simply to change the amount of acidulated malt after I go back to the Recipe Builder, then things seem to work correctly.
     

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