Cleaning and Rinsing

[Craigerrr]

After having a couple of batches recently that were just okay, and one that was actually a little off, I have decided to re-examine my cleaning and rinsing process. Mostly rinsing actually. I suspect that cleaning solution left behind may be the culprit.

Iam open to any critiquing of the process and any suggestions anyone may have

Counter Flow Ciller
Thoroughly rinse as soon as possible after transferring to fermenter by connecting to faucet.
Once I get to cleaning the kettle with some hot PBW mixture I cycle it through the CFC for a good few minutes until it is not loosing a lot of temperature at the outlet, then turn it off and let it sit for 5 minutes. I then repeat this process again. Now time to rinse again, I rinse with hot tap water again for a good 5 minutes, then switch from hot to cold for another 5 minutes. When I pull the quick disconnect from the I let the water syphons out of the chiller.

Kettle
After a wipe down, and rinsing out the crud and debris from the kettle and the pump I put a few drops of beer line cleaner on the bottom and wipe off the crud that is kinda burned onto the bottom. Another thorough rinse, then I add about a gallon to a gallon and a half of hot water and a scoop of PBW, and set the controls to 77C/170F and recirculate (see above). I made another little adapter so I can connect the faucet to the outlet of the pump to thoroughly rinse the pump circuit with hot, then cold water. Finally a thorough rinse of the inside of the kettle, then it sit upside down in the sink overnight. Oh, and I bevelled the ends of the ring at the top of the kettle to make it easier to pop out so I can clean in behind there as well.

Fermenter (allrounder)
After rinsing out all of the debris I use some dish soap in warm water and a microfiber cloth to wash, then a thorough rinse with first hot, and then cold water.
Before using g it for the most recent brew I filled it with sanitizer and let it soak for a couple of hours.

 

[philjohnwilliams]

I assume the procedures you've described are the same ones you've been using for a while? I suspect rinsing isn't the cause of your issue, you seem to be rising more than enough, even if there was some cleaning residue left, after being diluted with 20ish liters of beer it should be well below the taste threshold. I had a similar issue years ago that I finally traced to an infected plastic wine thief I was using to take gravity samples. I now regularly give all my post boil equipment a bleach bath to kill everything that may be on them, as I've heard that sanitizers like Star San and Iodophor don't kill as broad a spectrum of microbes as bleach does.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

What kind of problems are you having with your beer?

I don't see any problems with your cleaning routine. The counter flow could be just thoroughly rinsed after each brew and then cleaned every 4th brew or so. One way to sanitize the counter flow is to circulate hot wort through the coil without any cooling water. I have seen this done and it's really a simple way to sanitize the internals of the wort chiller. Or you could just keep doing what your doing.

Honestly, your more thorough me when it comes to cleaning, you certainly rinse more than me.

 

[Minbari]

@HighVoltageMan! Me too. I just CIP my boil pot with pbw and then rise once. Same for the HERMs coil and tubing. Have not had issues with weird flavors

 

[Craigerrr]

I have not rinsed so thoroughly in the past as I do now. The most recent beer that was sub par is actually coming around now, it is still not up to my expectations, but it is good.
I had a black IPA a while back that was drinkable friendsand family said, but barely drinkable to me. The off flavor is hard to describe, not soapy per se, or medicinal, but something in between those two. Fingers are crossed on the coffee porter in the fermenter.
Part of my process is filling the brewzilla right to the very top, then pumping what will become sparge water to another kettle. When I pumped water out to the kettle Saturday there was a bit of what I would call suds forming in the receiving kettle, which has me concerned, and led to my excessive rinsing during clean up.
By the way, I do recirculate through the CFC in the last 10-15 minutes of the boil.

 

[Minbari]

I have not rinsed so thoroughly in the past as I do now. The most recent beer that was sub par is actually coming around now, it is still not up to my expectations, but it is good.
I had a black IPA a while back that was drinkable friendsand family said, but barely drinkable to me. The off flavor is hard to describe, not soapy per se, or medicinal, but something in between those two. Fingers are crossed on the coffee porter in the fermenter.
Part of my process is filling the brewzilla right to the very top, then pumping what will become sparge water to another kettle. When I pumped water out to the kettle Saturday there was a bit of what I would call suds forming in the receiving kettle, which has me concerned, and led to my excessive rinsing during clean up.
By the way, I do recirculate through the CFC in the last 10-15 minutes of the boil.

that almost sounds like phenolic flavours. polyphoenol and chloropheonol can cause the flavours you are describing. do you use any bleach based cleaners? wild yeast can cause it too.

 

[Sandy Feet]

Stupid idea, but have you taken apart the plumbing on the kettle? Crap/hops/whatever gets caught in the ball valve fittings. I have one of the holes closed on my kettle, and I recently found crap in the fitting that closes the hole.
I use the PB cleaner on my keg and lines, but I just give a good rinse and wipe down to the kettle. I clean with Star San and run Star San though the ball valve before I brew. I have Star San in my fermenter for days before I brew.

 

[RoadRoach]

One thing to remember is that hot-side equipment is pretty much self-sanitizing. You're going to BOIL in it, meaning you're gonna kill EVERYTHING. Even if something WAS living in any residue in the equipment, it's gonna get BOILED, ergo killed. Agreeably, it gives me that warm fuzzy to see any scorched wort or scale removed from the bottom and I like to clean out hidey holes in the hot side equipment as well, but I worry a lot less about that than I do the cold side (fermentation). I deep clean my kettles occasionally with brutal cleaning equipment (steel wool or wire brush), but that's only because I don't like to see the scale/scorched wort build up. The fact that bad things can grow inside a plate chiller or counterflow chiller are the very reasons I've balked at stepping 'up' from a plain ol' homemade immersion chiller. The immersion chiller gets sanitized every time it's put into the boil, and never sees wort inside it, and the water in it never gets into the process. It's EASY to wash/rinse off, and from what I've read, the copper ions released in the wort are actually good for the yeast. I don't worry a lot about contamination in hot-side equipment so much as general appearance of it. If I see a build up, I scour it off best I can.

I'm a lot more thorough with my cold-side cleaning, but still, I don't get soapy detergents anywhere near my fermenter. This started primarily due to poor head retention issues, but I've read too many opinions that say soapy detergents should not be introduced into the brewing process, and some articles have suggested that soapy detergents can actually become a promoter of bacteria with insufficient rinsing. Makes sense to me. Ever smell a dis-used dishwasher? They smell BAD, despite the detergents and extremely hot water used in them. If I do a bleach-out on my fermenter, then it gets rinsed until I can no longer smell the bleach. I normally do a 'scrub' (using a luffa) with PBW after packaging a batch, and try to leave it sitting over night to make sure it soaks into all the little places that can't really be cleaned without disassembly. I attach the sediment bulb and open the ball valve to a 45 degree angle to make sure the inside of the valve gets sanitized as well. Every 3rd or 4th batch I disassemble the fermenter completely down to the smallest parts for a deep clean/sanitizing. After cleaning, it gets fresh silicone lube and thread tape.

Like @Sandy Feet , I'll fill my fermenter to the brim with Star-San solution well in advance of brew day. While boiling, I capture that solution and use it later for bottle rinsing. I rinse out ever bottle with tap water after drinking the beer, then turn it upside down to drain/dry. Upside down dry bottles don't need a lot of cleaning when it's time to refill them. A quick splash with the FastWash system using Star-San is easily done while boiling a batch, and I only need a little top-off in the tub I use for that.

 

[BarbarianBrewer]

The fact that bad things can grow inside a plate chiller or counterflow chiller are the very reasons I've balked at stepping 'up' from a plain ol' homemade immersion chiller.

Same fear here. It's like a good horror/suspense movie. It's what you can't see that will kill you!
At the homebrew level I don't believe that a plate/counterflow chiller will shorten the the chilling time enough to be worth the extra cost and cleaning regimen they require.

 

[GFHomebrew]

The dish soap is unsented @Craigerrr

I'd use your PBW in place of this in the Alrounder.

It's my understanding the acid rinse and CIP removes any left over Sodium Percarbonate from the Cleaning cycle.

Hot Sanitizer even better.



I'm clutching at straws though it sounds like you've got a thorough cleaning process to me.

Your pitching plenty of yeast?
And I know your using metabisulfite to remove Chloramines.
How about your sparge Water do you treat that?


That PBW I've found doesn't take much of a rinse to pass the smell tester much more rinsing for Napisan oxyclean when I use that and if I were playing with Dishsoap or bleach I'd rinse even more.

Good Luck big fella you got a wedding comming up to brew for!

 

[RoadRoach]

Same fear here. It's like a good horror/suspense movie. It's what you can't see that will kill you!
At the homebrew level I don't believe that a plate/counterflow chiller will shorten the the chilling time enough to be worth the extra cost and cleaning regimen they require.

Yeah, that more accurately describes my decision process. If it saves me 10 minutes on chill time, but takes me 30 minutes and a ton of water to get it cleaned up, not sure I'd call that an upgrade. Those that have them, please don't think this a criticism. It's just not something I could justify for the amount of brewing I do. If a plate chiller gives you pleasure, by all means, you do you.

At this point, I'm considering a no-chill process, but have some concerns about keeping critters and bad things outta my wort while it's below 140F, but still not cool enough to pitch the yeast. A reverse air-lock slash blow-off system with sanitizer in it is my idea to remedy that. Can't see why running the little fridge/freezer to cool the wort to pitching temp would be an issue, and maybe add a little aerator rig cooling so that it doesn't deplete dissolved air while cooling. Might not want O2 after fermentation, but need heaps for the yeasty beasties.

 

[Minbari]

Yeah, that more accurately describes my decision process. If it saves me 10 minutes on chill time, but takes me 30 minutes and a ton of water to get it cleaned up, not sure I'd call that an upgrade. Those that have them, please don't think this a criticism. It's just not something I could justify for the amount of brewing I do. If a plate chiller gives you pleasure, by all means, you do you.

At this point, I'm considering a no-chill process, but have some concerns about keeping critters and bad things outta my wort while it's below 140F, but still not cool enough to pitch the yeast. A reverse air-lock slash blow-off system with sanitizer in it is my idea to remedy that. Can't see why running the little fridge/freezer to cool the wort to pitching temp would be an issue, and maybe add a little aerator rig cooling so that it doesn't deplete dissolved air while cooling. Might not want O2 after fermentation, but need heaps for the yeasty beasties.

With you on that. I know plate chillers work really well. But for 5 gallons, not worth the effort to clean it, lol

 

[west1m]

Yeah, that more accurately describes my decision process. If it saves me 10 minutes on chill time, but takes me 30 minutes and a ton of water to get it cleaned up, not sure I'd call that an upgrade. Those that have them, please don't think this a criticism. It's just not something I could justify for the amount of brewing I do. If a plate chiller gives you pleasure, by all means, you do you.

At this point, I'm considering a no-chill process, but have some concerns about keeping critters and bad things outta my wort while it's below 140F, but still not cool enough to pitch the yeast. A reverse air-lock slash blow-off system with sanitizer in it is my idea to remedy that. Can't see why running the little fridge/freezer to cool the wort to pitching temp would be an issue, and maybe add a little aerator rig cooling so that it doesn't deplete dissolved air while cooling. Might not want O2 after fermentation, but need heaps for the yeasty beasties.

Covered to cool, it will be dripping from the top. Will that be a problem?

 

[Zambi]

Sometimes I use no-chill. Just saran wrap around kettle and lid.
Sometimes a half way house: saran wrap again, kettle in water bad, refresh water a couple of times and then no chill.
I also top up with previously boiled water to get to desired OG. Sometimes this is "room" temperature water, sometimes water from the fridge

 

[Bigbre04]

After having a couple of batches recently that were just okay, and one that was actually a little off, I have decided to re-examine my cleaning and rinsing process. Mostly rinsing actually. I suspect that cleaning solution left behind may be the culprit.

Iam open to any critiquing of the process and any suggestions anyone may have

Counter Flow Ciller
Thoroughly rinse as soon as possible after transferring to fermenter by connecting to faucet.
Once I get to cleaning the kettle with some hot PBW mixture I cycle it through the CFC for a good few minutes until it is not loosing a lot of temperature at the outlet, then turn it off and let it sit for 5 minutes. I then repeat this process again. Now time to rinse again, I rinse with hot tap water again for a good 5 minutes, then switch from hot to cold for another 5 minutes. When I pull the quick disconnect from the I let the water syphons out of the chiller.

On your second spin think about reversing the flow.

Also High heat is king. Spin Hot(180f) water through it on the day of brewing. Heat exchangers are notoriously hard to clean without getting it fucking hot. like the water coming out of it needs to be 180. the metal on the outside needs to be hot as hell. its full of nooks and crannies.

Kettle
After a wipe down, and rinsing out the crud and debris from the kettle and the pump I put a few drops of beer line cleaner on the bottom and wipe off the crud that is kinda burned onto the bottom. Another thorough rinse, then I add about a gallon to a gallon and a half of hot water and a scoop of PBW, and set the controls to 77C/170F and recirculate (see above). I made another little adapter so I can connect the faucet to the outlet of the pump to thoroughly rinse the pump circuit with hot, then cold water. Finally a thorough rinse of the inside of the kettle, then it sit upside down in the sink overnight. Oh, and I bevelled the ends of the ring at the top of the kettle to make it easier to pop out so I can clean in behind there as well.

The kettle and anything that touches hot wort is basically self sanitizing. Get rid of the gunk and you are fine.

Fermenter (allrounder)
After rinsing out all of the debris I use some dish soap in warm water and a microfiber cloth to wash, then a thorough rinse with first hot, and then cold water.
Before using g it for the most recent brew I filled it with sanitizer and let it soak for a couple of hours.

Dont use dish soap. PBW is far better and will rinse clean. Follow it with sani. Push the Sani out with CO2. DO NOT RINSE OUT THE SANI!!!

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So the hot side ends before the heat exchanger. Cold side has to be kept sanitary and sealed.

Likely if it was an infection it came from the heat exchanger.

 

[Bigbre04]

The other thing is keeping your fermenter sealed as well as you can while you knock out.

When pitching yeast clean the outside of the pack and toss it in. add positive pressure(co2) to the vessel. Best practice is actually to toss the yeasties in while you are headed into the fermenter using the positive pressure from the transfer/O2 to keep things clean. Tossing it in while its still moving helps to mix in the yeast.

 

[Bigbre04]

I assume that you are leaving your kettle over 180 until you start to knock out? You can get some off flavors from letting it too cool and then letting the steam condensate drip back in. DMS i think???

 

[Craigerrr]

Lots of good input here, thanks everyone.

My counterflow chiller is the coiled type with ss tubing. Maybe after cleaning and rinsing I could/should leave it filled with sanitizer between brews.

Will definitely discontinue using dish soap when cleaning the fermenter. It is the PET Kegland Allrounder, not much to clean really. I will fill to the top with sanitizer when starting brew day from now on.

I'm not concerned about infection from the kettle obviously, more concerned about rinsing out the PBW solution completely.

Again, thanks for the input, and at the end of the day it was just one brew that seemed to have something going on with it as the ESB, is conditioning nicely, and very enjoyable.

 

[Bigbre04]

Lots of good input here, thanks everyone.

My counterflow chiller is the coiled type with ss tubing. Maybe after cleaning and rinsing I could/should leave it filled with sanitizer between brews.

Yes and on your brewday burn it with Hot water or recirculate boiling wort through it to heat sanitize it. This type is far less likely to cause problems then a plate and frame, but also far less efficient.

Will definitely discontinue using dish soap when cleaning the fermenter. It is the PET Kegland Allrounder, not much to clean really. I will fill to the top with sanitizer when starting brew day from now on.

I would be very careful scrubbing a PET fermenter because any scratches can hold onto bugs. depending on what the temp rating is, you could also heat it up to heat sanitize. Same with ALL of your hoses and fittings.

Grain dust is also a serious infection point just a heads up!

 

[RoadRoach]

Covered to cool, it will be dripping from the top. Will that be a problem?

The fridge or the fermenter? Don't care if the fridge drips. All it can do is run into the drip pan and evaporate, or run onto an unfinished concrete floor.

I figured I'd just rig up a blow-off jar that can serve either blow-off during fermentation or suck-back during No-Chill/slow chill. My list of brewing projects is getting longer a lot faster than I'm brewing with all the home improvement projects I have going on. I really should be writing down all these brainstorms.