buying high mineral water

[Nosybear]

or... is the use of carbonates ONLY to balance out pH back to, 5.5 let's say.

And there is no flavor contribution or dark malt flavor balancing power from bicarbonate like I previously believed.

It raises pH. And you won't use carbonate itself - too insoluble and in the mash can lead to formation of calcium phosphates, tiny crystals of the mineral apatite, later leading to gushers because each one of those tiny crystals is a condensation nucleus in your carbonated beer. If your mash pH gets too low, below 5.2, then some baking soda will bring it back up - bicarbonate is baking soda, it does the same thing and is soluble in water. You could also use hydroxide (slaked lime or lye) to bring the pH back up but both are dangerous chemicals and are very potent. We use acids because mash pH's generally tend more to be too high than too low and acids lower pH. When you use a lot of "character" or "color" malts, it pushes the mash pH down, you can bring it back up with a base.

 

[oliver]

It raises pH. And you won't use carbonate itself - too insoluble and in the mash can lead to formation of calcium phosphates, tiny crystals of the mineral apatite, later leading to gushers because each one of those tiny crystals is a condensation nucleus in your carbonated beer. If your mash pH gets too low, below 5.2, then some baking soda will bring it back up - bicarbonate is baking soda, it does the same thing and is soluble in water. You could also use hydroxide (slaked lime or lye) to bring the pH back up but both are dangerous chemicals and are very potent. We use acids because mash pH's generally tend more to be too high than too low and acids lower pH. When you use a lot of "character" or "color" malts, it pushes the mash pH down, you can bring it back up with a base.

yes yes. I'm understanding fully that dark malts lower pH because they are acidic and bicarbonate raises pH back to a good level.

my only other question is unanswered.
does elevated HCO3 numbers mellow the harshness of dark roasted malts?

 

[Nosybear]

Nope. Use dehusked dark roasted malts to reduce harshness. Midnight Wheat is a good one for color. I love the Carafa series - they're dehusked and don't add a lot of harshness. You really want to go dark without harshness, see if you can get your hands on some Sinamar, an extract of dark malts. And dechlorinate. Before I started that, my dark beers were harsh.

 

[oliver]

I’ve used midnight wheat before. Hit and miss for me. One beer that had 10% midnight wheat and was the only dark malt in it tasted like an ashtray.

How do you mean dechlorinate? Like boil campden? If I’m starting from DI, I ain’t got no chlorine or chloramine.

 

[GFHomebrew]

id use the hi Residual alkaline water and build up from there. late addition of black malt could help too ive herd it imparts less ashtray ive not done this myself.
but your talking water adjustments for dark beers i reckon a teaspoon of bicarbonate in the mash or straight to the kettle cant hurt just for experimental purposes. heck ill do it in my next brew and give me a month and ill fill you in. fortune favours the bold (i hope not the stupid)!

 

[vthokiedsp]

so what I might be understanding is that I don't need to worry about bicarbonate at all? I've been told that bicarbonate balances out darker roasted grains and is necessary.

I'm understanding now the pH raising effectiveness of Baking Soda, but if I brewed two stouts, or two porters, side by side, 1 with no baking soda and no bicarbonates, and the other built up to 150 on the bicarbonate, would one be totally astringent bitter because it had no bicarbonate to balance out the dark malts? That's been my early understanding of that sort of thing.

I focus more on the chloride to sulfate ratio than bicarb. Bunch of articles that get into details like this one : http://beerandwinejournal.com/chloride-and-sulfate/

Made a noticeable difference for me. Oh, some peeps use the reciprical of sulf to cl. Same thing.

rules of thumb (that i use):
malty beer benefits from a higher Cl to SO4 ratio. From 1.25-1.5 for Browns/Porters to 1.5-2.0 for Stouts
hoppy beer benefits from a lower Cl to SO4 ratio. From 0.0-0.5 for IPAs to 0.5-0.75 for Pales
belgian and wheats…target 0.75 to 1.25.

 

[GFHomebrew]

gunna brew this with some baking powder addition

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/604002/malt-lust-lager

here is my water profile

https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=XB0S8Y6

 

[Yooper]

or... is the use of carbonates ONLY to balance out pH back to, 5.5 let's say.

And there is no flavor contribution or dark malt flavor balancing power from bicarbonate like I previously believed.

Correct. The use of bicarbonate is important- in that if you use RO water and a highly acidic (dark) grainbill the mash pH will likely be pushed too low. So you may need a bit of bicarbonate in the mashing water to get a mash pH of 5.5 or so.

You NEVER want to add bicarbonate or other alkalinity to your sparge water, though (if doing a traditional mash/sparge).

 

[oliver]

Correct. The use of bicarbonate is important- in that if you use RO water and a highly acidic (dark) grainbill the mash pH will likely be pushed too low. So you may need a bit of bicarbonate in the mashing water to get a mash pH of 5.5 or so.

You NEVER want to add bicarbonate or other alkalinity to your sparge water, though (if doing a traditional mash/sparge).

I sparge DI water with no additions, and assume the pH of that water is 5.75 with CO2 absorption... I talked to a home brewer who works treating water, he told me something along the lines of, the pH of your DI water is insignificant. I can't remember exactly why, it has to do with strong and weak acids or something? Essentially, DI water is just H20 and doesn't have the power to alter anything. For example, mashing with DI water, if it was pH 7 or pH 5, wouldn't make a difference, and the water calculator agrees, it doesn't reflect any pH changes when messing with the pH of DI source water.

I've thought about mineralizing my sparge water, but I can't figure out exactly how to get the numbers all right, as in, I'm not sure how many minerals to mash with and how many to sparge with. I mash about 5 pounds of malt in 10 quarts of DI water and always check the box, 'salts added to mash only'.

 

[Yooper]

I sparge DI water with no additions, and assume the pH of that water is 5.75 with CO2 absorption... I talked to a home brewer who works treating water, he told me something along the lines of, the pH of your DI water is insignificant. I can't remember exactly why, it has to do with strong and weak acids or something? Essentially, DI water is just H20 and doesn't have the power to alter anything. For example, mashing with DI water, if it was pH 7 or pH 5, wouldn't make a difference, and the water calculator agrees, it doesn't reflect any pH changes when messing with the pH of DI source water.

I've thought about mineralizing my sparge water, but I can't figure out exactly how to get the numbers all right, as in, I'm not sure how many minerals to mash with and how many to sparge with. I mash about 5 pounds of malt in 10 quarts of DI water and always check the box, 'salts added to mash only'.

Right- the pH of the sparge water is insignificant- IF it's RO or distilled water with little or no alkalinity. If it's not, and there is bicarbonate (alkalinity) in that water, the pH should be reduced to under 6. If there is little akalinity, like with RO water, the buffering capacity is reduced so that the pH doesn't matter.

You don't want or need to mineralize your sparge water. You CAN, if adding the salts to the mash drive the mash pH too low, but you can also just add them to the kettle if you sparge with 100% RO or distilled water.