Brewing a Saison

[Brew Cat]

Figured I'd start yet another saison thread
Saison used to be my favorite style when I bottled. Something about a Saison that works well in the bottle. Maybe the yeast continues to do its thing. Maybe the dregs in the bottle. Anyway maybe my kegged version get drunk faster.
I used to always use WY3711 which is a fantastic yeast. Lately been using Belle Saison dry. This next one I'll use T58 only because I have a package. Not even sure why I bought, maybe a sale or freebie. Anyway one use it or like to share something on the style

 

[Zambi]

T58 is not a saison yeast, if I remember correct.
I'm currently using lallemand saison and previously mangrove jack's

 

[Brew Cat]

T58 is not a saison yeast, if I remember correct.
I'm currently using lallemand saison and previously mangrove jack's

Yea you are correct it is not technically a Saison yeast but it's been suggested for a Saison. Like I said not expecting my best saison but I have it. At worst it will be a Belgian golden ale

 

[Brew Cat]

https://forum.homebrewersassociation.org/t/fermentis-safale-dried-yeast-and-saison/18421

 

[Dave Y]

I used Belle Saison for my ‘Funky Robot’ farmhouse ale with honey. I have a local beekeeper who I stay in touch with for their harvests. A couple years ago they had some really dark honey that was supposed to be from horse mint. It was very distinctive and had a very spicy finish, much more so than you’d expect from honey. I should have bought more of it when I had the chance. I’ve come close on some of the seasonal honeys the last 2 years but not quite. I was really surprised at the spectrum of honey flavors, obviously based on what the bees are frequenting. Anyway, I really liked the Belle Saison for the farmhouse style. The previous ‘robot was done with Voss Kveik, hot fermented and it was good but a little citrusy for the style.

Anyway, I like Belle Saison and would definitely do it again.

 

[Craigerrr]

I used Belle Saison for my ‘Funky Robot’ farmhouse ale with honey. I have a local beekeeper who I stay in touch with for their harvests. A couple years ago they had some really dark honey that was supposed to be from horse mint. It was very distinctive and had a very spicy finish, much more so than you’d expect from honey. I should have bought more of it when I had the chance. I’ve come close on some of the seasonal honeys the last 2 years but not quite. I was really surprised at the spectrum of honey flavors, obviously based on what the bees are frequenting. Anyway, I really liked the Belle Saison for the farmhouse style. The previous ‘robot was done with Voss Kveik, hot fermented and it was good but a little citrusy for the style.

Anyway, I like Belle Saison and would definitely do it again.

Honey is truly just straight up sugar, the flavor contribution would be minimal if noticeable at all.

 

[Dave Y]

Honey is truly just straight up sugar, the flavor contribution would be minimal if noticeable at all.

I disagree.
I’ve done at least 2 dozen brews with honey and agave, they’re both big here in Texas. Both shine through with a flavor contribution and can be detected even at 1# in 12# of malt. Agave is a bit more subtle, and a pound of it is there, and contributes this warm, darker(?) flavor content but fewer people know what it tastes like pre-distillation. Shiner does an agave lager, and I don’t know how much they use per batch but it’s also something you can pick out that’s not usual.

I use raw honey and raw agave, added in the boil cool down, at no higher than 90F, not the off the shelf, bland, pasteurized honey.
Now, I’m not getting every single attribute of the honey in the finished beer, but it’s definitely identifiable, even by the Modelo drinking neighbors.

 

[Sandy Feet]

WY3711 is basically the same as WLP 590. I have used both. I haven't used the yeast in your post. Both 3711 and 590 ferment down very low. I like to mash a Saison around 148 and I usually end with much more alcohol than my software predicts. 3711/590 will come out nice, clean, and dry for a Saison.
I like to keep it pretty simple: Good Pilsner and about 2 lbs of wheat in 5 gallons although I did play with a little Vienna in the last one. I like to use EKG and Saaz for hops.
I did use one of the lemons from my back yard in the mash in my last batch, and I could taste it without being it overpowering. I use a blow off tube with a Saison yeast, start around 68 and slowly start getting it closer to 74 starting around day 3 (with 3711/590). The Belgian ones like it hotter, and you can let those free rise into the 80s if you go low to high.
I have used a blueberry puree with a Belgian Saison, and that was kind of cool.
I think I am going to do one next and maybe try some late Saaz additions too.

 

[Brew Cat]

Yeah Im doing wheat and pilsner with EKG. The lemon sounds interesting but I'll wait and maybe add it to the keg.
Now I agree honey does have a flavor especially some of the stronger ones. Ive not used it in beer but have made plenty of mead so I know the flavor but not a flavor that Im looking for in my beer. Actually haven't seen pasteurized honey but I only get local honey. As an aside to get the best health benefits from honey you want honey that has been foraged by bees on the local flora.

 

[Craigerrr]

I disagree.
I’ve done at least 2 dozen brews with honey and agave, they’re both big here in Texas. Both shine through with a flavor contribution and can be detected even at 1# in 12# of malt. Agave is a bit more subtle, and a pound of it is there, and contributes this warm, darker(?) flavor content but fewer people know what it tastes like pre-distillation. Shiner does an agave lager, and I don’t know how much they use per batch but it’s also something you can pick out that’s not usual.

I use raw honey and raw agave, added in the boil cool down, at no higher than 90F, not the off the shelf, bland, pasteurized honey.
Now, I’m not getting every single attribute of the honey in the finished beer, but it’s definitely identifiable, even by the Modelo drinking neighbors.

I will take your experienced word for it Dave!

 

[Sandy Feet]

I have only used honey once, and it was my F up that did me in:
I had some very local honey from a relative. I had a perfect plan - add it at flameout, so I get some flavor and get the sugar. The problem was it sunk into the kettle, dropped like a rock, and I got very little, if any into the fermenter. Next time, I might just pasteurize the shit in the microwave and dump it straight into the fermenter.
I think you will get something off of local honey if it isn't boiled, probably nothing from the store bought shit.

 

[Craigerrr]

I used honey once, one pound in a Christmas Ale, it also had some cinnamon and ginger as late boil additions. It was store bought honey. I feel like it got lost in the big flavors. This was early in my career, ABV target was 6.8, came out at 7.8, it had some special roast, and some roasted barley in it too.
Almost 7 years ago, I need to plan to brew this one to be on tap in December...
For what it's costs, I will use honey again

 

[Brew Cat]

I have only used honey once, and it was my F up that did me in:
I had some very local honey from a relative. I had a perfect plan - add it at flameout, so I get some flavor and get the sugar. The problem was it sunk into the kettle, dropped like a rock, and I got very little, if any into the fermenter. Next time, I might just pasteurize the shit in the microwave and dump it straight into the fermenter.
I think you will get something off of local honey if it isn't boiled, probably nothing from the store bought shit.

You don't pasteurize honey just dump it in.

 

[Megary]

I brew a Saison, mashed with lemons, every summer. I really enjoying the flavors from Lallemand's Farmhouse strain. Classic Saison notes but with a bit more depth of flavor than Belle/3711. It also doesn't ferment as low, leaving a bit more mouthfeel - which, depending on how dry you like your Saisons, might be a good or bad thing. But I'm not one who wants my Saisons to hit 7%, so Farmhouse is a nice, built-in insurance policy.

Saisons are tricky, imo. So many dials to turn with strain, ferm temp, grist, process etc.

 

[Brew Cat]

I brew a Saison, mashed with lemons, every summer. I really enjoying the flavors from Lallemand's Farmhouse strain. Classic Saison notes but with a bit more depth of flavor than Belle/3711. It also doesn't ferment as low, leaving a bit more mouthfeel - which, depending on how dry you like your Saisons, might be a good or bad thing. But I'm not one who wants my Saisons to hit 7%, so Farmhouse is a nice, built-in insurance policy.

Saisons are tricky, imo. So many dials to turn with strain, ferm temp, grist, process etc.

Well the T-58 shouldn't attenuate to low. I've done many saison but never with lemon. I use lemon in my summer ale with Chico yeast. I add it to the boil. What is the purpose of adding it to the mash? Is that to lower the Ph? I've heard people use lemon juice for that. Anyway I have a dehydrator and thought maybe dry some and add to the keg. I'm starting to visualize it in my mind

 

[Megary]

Well the T-58 shouldn't attenuate to low. I've done many saison but never with lemon. I use lemon in my summer ale with Chico yeast. I add it to the boil. What is the purpose of adding it to the mash? Is that to lower the Ph? I've heard people use lemon juice for that. Anyway I have a dehydrator and thought maybe dry some and add to the keg. I'm starting to visualize it in my mind

I heard a podcast one time with John Rowley from Rowley Farmhouse Ales in NM where he talked about mashing with lemons. Sounded very much in the rustic spirit of a "farmhouse" style beer, so I gave it a shot and have been doing it ever since. I simply quarter 1/2lb. lemons (usually 2) and add them directly to the mash. As you say, the lemons also work with my well water as the mash pH adjustment, though I have never been quite comfortable with what the exact concentration of acid the lemons actually add. I'll also add the zest from 2 lemons at flameout. Does this give me a great lemon presence in the final beer? Not really, but it does seem to add a bright acidity that I wouldn't get otherwise. At least, that's what I tell myself.

 

[Steve Ruch]

I used Belle Saison for my ‘Funky Robot’ farmhouse ale with honey. I have a local beekeeper who I stay in touch with for their harvests. A couple years ago they had some really dark honey that was supposed to be from horse mint. It was very distinctive and had a very spicy finish, much more so than you’d expect from honey. I should have bought more of it when I had the chance. I’ve come close on some of the seasonal honeys the last 2 years but not quite. I was really surprised at the spectrum of honey flavors, obviously based on what the bees are frequenting. Anyway, I really liked the Belle Saison for the farmhouse style. The previous ‘robot was done with Voss Kveik, hot fermented and it was good but a little citrusy for the style.

Anyway, I like Belle Saison and would definitely do it again.

Unfortunately belle saison has been discontinued.

 

[Dave Y]

I had some very local honey from a relative. I had a perfect plan - add it at flameout, so I get some flavor and get the sugar. The problem was it sunk into the kettle, dropped like a rock, and I got very little, if any into the fermenter.

t was store bought honey. I feel like it got lost in the big flavors.

You don't pasteurize honey just dump it in.

If you’re just going for a sugar addition, store bought honey will do. If you want some actual flavor from the addition, you want raw honey - or raw agave, the darker, the more distinctive generally.

To get the most out of it, add it after your wort temperature drops below 90F, I try to be under 80 if I can. Hot temps will kill the flavor.

Raw honey will crystallize and harden over time. This is normal and all you need to do is warm it up. Place the jar in a container of hot water slowly raise the temperature of the water and leave the honey in there. periodically pull / shake the jar. You can warm the water to over 90F but try not to go crazy.

 

[Zambi]

Unfortunately belle saison has been discontinued.

I hadn't heard.
Brewing with it at the mo.
I do prefer MJ's saison though

 

[Sandy Feet]

You don't pasteurize honey just dump it in.

I read a number of different discussions on this, and the opinions are as numerous as the brewers.
One school of thought is just that, dump it in. The other school doesn't want whatever yeast/microorganisms in the honey to interfere with the strain that you want to brew with. Thus, the pasteurization. You don't worry about a boil removing flavors that way, and you don't worry about other microorganisms in the honey.
Everything I read wanted the brewer to avoid the storebought honey if they wanted flavor from it, and everything mentioned the loss of flavor from the local stuff during the boil.
Other than sanitation and temperature, there are not too many absolutes in brewing.