Batch sparge question

Discussion in 'General Brewing Discussions' started by LlewellynBrewHaus, Oct 21, 2016.

  1. LlewellynBrewHaus

    LlewellynBrewHaus Active Member

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    So pretty basic question here. Reading through Mosers "mastering homebrew" and in the discussion on sparging techniques, He talks about tannin extraction with extended sparging or multiple batch sparges. While I haven't found tannin extraction to be an issue with my brewing, I'm also always on the lookout for process efficiency improvements.
    My cooler-tun is 56 qts so I have plenty of available room for water and I was thinking why not add all of my sparge water to the mash at mashout, vorlauf once, and drain into kettle.

    What say YE good people?
     
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  2. jmcnamara

    jmcnamara Well-Known Member

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    hey, i'm in the midst of reading that book too

    my 2 cents, and i'm not sure how this analogy holds, but i'm thinking of the mash like a tub of soapy water.
    you wouldn't add more water to the tub and then drain, since there'd still be soap left in the empty tub. you'd drain the tub first, then rinse it out to get the remaining soap out

    did he explain what "extended" or "multiple" means? i don't recall.

    and i thought i read somewhere that tannin extraction is more from ph level, rather than sparge temp and other factors. but i guess if you're adding water and removing wort, the ph would change as well
     
  3. newmanwell

    newmanwell Active Member

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    Tannins are a pH issue, keeping your sparge under 6 is usually the best practice. I acidify my spage water to help with this potential problem.

    On another note, I used to batch sparge and got efficiency in the low 70s. When I switched to a sparge arm I jumped to the low to mid 80s. All other equipment remained the same.
     
  4. LlewellynBrewHaus

    LlewellynBrewHaus Active Member

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    I think what he was referring to with "multiple" was with doing 2-3 batch sparges and that each additional sparge water addition worked to alter the Ph of the grain bed on the next water addition.
     
  5. LlewellynBrewHaus

    LlewellynBrewHaus Active Member

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    I'm at 82-85% with my current batch sparge setup
     
  6. jmcnamara

    jmcnamara Well-Known Member

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    ahh, gotcha. that seems a bit of overkill in my opinion
     
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  7. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    It's brilliant, actually. I don't do a mash-out but I do what you suggest - a batch sparge that brings my mash up to mash-out temperatures. pH is the main issue and given a short sparge, odds of extracting tannins are pretty low. I've also heard rumors that there's a Brulosophy experiment out there that indicates temperature during batch sparging doesn't matter that much but I'll wait a while before I throw out years of brewing experience.
     
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  8. LlewellynBrewHaus

    LlewellynBrewHaus Active Member

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    Planning on brewing a XPA this weekend, thinking ill give this process change a go on this this batch. I have 3 other brew logs using this cooler-tun that I can compare process numbers with. Also, its a higher OG at 1.070 so if I lose in the efficiency department no worries. Planning on pulling a jar of 1272 out of the fridge later this afternoon to spin up a starter...should be interesting that sample been sleeping in fridge for just under a year.
    Love what Marshall does over at Brulosophy, but I'm not likely to change much :)
     
  9. Ozarks Mountain Brew

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    this issues with sparging are ph being wrong and the grain being too soft from the grain temperature too hot, with batch sparging non of thats really going to happen, even if you raise your water to 170 the gain will not be that temp. I fly sparge for 60 minutes, do a 170 mahout and bring the grain to 170 then sparge slowly with 5.5 ph water but turn the heat off so the temp of the grain and sparge water drops as it sparges to the 150 range even with what I do no tannins are present in my beers
     
  10. das alte

    das alte Member

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    Why is it that the grain does not get "too soft" when the decoction method is used? The mash is boiled several times.
    Mash out was intended to be used with the decoction method where as hard starch becomes liquefied by enzymes early on during the brewing process. Take a look at the spent mash after single infusion and notice the pieces of white stuff in it. The stuff is hard starch which should have been used to make beer. The stuff was paid for so why not use it? The starch is heat resistant and when high mash out temperatures are used the starch enters into solution when enzymes are denatured. The starch is transferred down the line causing instability of the final product. Although, a guy recently lays claim to the invention of batch sparging he would have to be around 300 years old if he did invent it. It was the process used to make a style of beer called Paupers Beer. The malt used for Paupers Beer was very poor and at times the brewer would use spent malt thrown away by breweries to produce the beer. The malt was gummed up and it would stick during sparge. Hot water was added and the mash was stirred in order for it to be ran through the false bottom. Protein mud and other stuff that otherwise, would be caught by the filter bed is washed down the line. The difference is that toilet braids didn't exist 300 years ago. The procedure only shortens brewing time which has become an attraction. It does not have a positive impact on the final product. The guy's next invention might be a mash paddle manufactured from the wood seat from an outhouse and with finite experimentation performed by brulostofer it may be found to cause natural acidification of the mash when it is used to destroy evil dough balls.

    Sparge issues are caused by beta glucan, protein gum, sparging too quickly causing the bed to tighten and poor equipment. Before beginning sparge test the mash pH and reduce it if necessary going no lower than 4.6. Sparge down until gravity drops to 1015 that is low enough. With sparge water at pH 7-7.2, pH will not rise very much. When final mash pH is 5.2 using neutral sparge water, pH will usually rise to 5.3 at 1015 gravity, corrected.
     
  11. Brew Cat

    Brew Cat Active Member

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    I do a dunk sparge and constantly get over 85%. I crush the grain at .025 which would clog a braid so I use a brew bag in my cooler. I heat more water in my brew pot and pull the bag and drop it in the pot for ten minutes. Then pull the bag and fire the burner while draining the bag and cooler into the pot. Savers time and money.
     
  12. Trialben

    Trialben Well-Known Member

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    I pretty much full volume mash and mash out then sparge with 5 lt to rinse sugars from grains. Last brew scored 83% brew house from memory I also wizzed my grain to near flour consistency. At least on full volume mash it makes for calculating salts and acid addition easier as your using pretty much your complete water volume.
     
  13. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    Lots of opinion flying around in this thread.... From all I can determine, batch sparging for 10 minutes at 170 degrees shouldn't extract tannins unless you have very alkaline water. If you're worried about tannins, acidify your sparge water to around pH 5.5 - pH 6.0 and you shouldn't have issues. I haven't looked into fly sparging but from what I've read, as long as you keep the runnings below pH 5.8 you should be fine there as well. The following works for me: I treat all my water the same way, mash and sparge. I try to sparge with about half of the liquor, heated to 175 degrees, for 10-15 minutes. My conversion efficiency runs about 78% and I have not experienced astringency problems. Works for me, actual mileage may vary.
     
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  14. LlewellynBrewHaus

    LlewellynBrewHaus Active Member

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    Well, I gave it a go in my last brewday with my LPX. Mashed grist @ 1.3 qt/lb with calculated strike volume and temp. At the end of and the mash I then added all the remaining sparge water into the mash and that balanced out my mash tun at 168-170. after 10-15 minutes I performed a vorlouf till it was clear and draining into my kettle. I would guess that It took probably 15-20 min to drain the tun into the kettle and ended up the the proper preboil volume in the kettle. No worries
    One thing that changed vs. my previous 3 brew sessions was my efficiency. My conversion was the same +/- 4% from my average but I found, at least with this session, that my pre boil efficiency suffered around a :eek: 10% hit. So that would lead me to conclude; that the extra batch sparge step is for me a necessary step and that I left a lot of sugar behind by cutting it out of my process.

    success non the less ...and learned something about my processes and why I do them the way that I do them.
     
  15. Brew Cat

    Brew Cat Active Member

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    You will always get less efficiency from a full volume mash. It's not a problem you just need to adjust your recipe
     
  16. sbaclimber

    sbaclimber Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm, this makes me think.... (dangerous, I know ;-)
    The only "treatment" I am currently using is a bit of acid malt to drop my mash (single infusion) pH below 5.4.
    Sparging (single, 30 min rest) I just use normal heated tap water. Should I be somehow treating my tap water for sparging as well?
    And if, assuming "das deutsche Reinheitsgebot" were to apply, how...?
     
  17. Ozarks Mountain Brew

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    I do it needs to be close to 5.4 not exact, 6 will even work
     
  18. LlewellynBrewHaus

    LlewellynBrewHaus Active Member

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    @sbaclimber Who's to say that that 5 ml of phosphoric acid, 10g of chalk, and 8g of epsom salt wasn't already in your sparge water when it came out of the tap into your kettle to heat up for sparging. lol
     

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