Adding starter volume and gravity support

Discussion in 'Recipe Editor' started by oliver, Mar 31, 2019.

  1. oliver

    oliver Well-Known Member

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    Have there been talks to add starter amounts to the recipe editor?... My starter method has changed with the Propper starter now on the shelves, so now in the recipe editor i'm accounting for a 1 quart smaller boil size, so that the 1 liter starter will hit my fermenter size, and i've added 4oz of Pilsen DME in the fermentables to account for the starter amount.

    The issue I find that maybe could be added in is the efficiency and water amount calculators get confused. I typically boil off 3qt/hr, so I'll adjust ahead of time to hit my boil size, and then the Brew Session doesn't understand how I came up with 9 quarts after the boil and 10 quarts into the fermenter. Just something I'd like to see added in to the calculator. Thanks mods.
     
  2. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    Please don't add this. It's simple math, it's trivial and it's just another thing to gum up the works.
     
  3. oliver

    oliver Well-Known Member

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    ok thanks for your input but have you offered any help?
     
  4. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    #4 Nosybear, Apr 1, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2019
    No, but I will now. The answer is really simple: The volume of alcohol is the ABV * volume of beer. This is true for both the beer and the starter. A starter will generally be around 4% ABV after finishing (assuming an OG of 1.04, an FG of 1.01, you can measure these if you'd like). So given 5 gallons of 5% beer, you have 5 * .05 gallons of alcohol, or 0.25 gallons of alcohol. Assuming a 1 quart starter, you have 0.25 * .04 gallons of alcohol, or 0.01 gallons. Add those and you have 0.26 gallons of alcohol. Your beer's ABV is now 0.26/(5+0.25) (volume of alcohol divided by total volume), or 4.95% ABV. As mentioned above, trivial. And that was assuming you don't decant any of the starter beer off the yeast.
     
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  5. oliver

    oliver Well-Known Member

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    thanks I know how the equation works. ((SG1*V1) + (SG2*V2)) / (V1+V2)

    I'm not asking how the calculations work, I'm asking to add a feature so that my Brew Sessions reflect more accuracy of what really happened. I'm not the only person who asks this same question. I have customers weekly who ask how to add their starter amounts in recipe builders.

    I'm asking the mods if they can add support for starter wort compensation in the water volume calculations during the brew session. The Brew It Session doesn't understand how my volumes add up because it doesn't take into account starters, and it also tries to tell me that I need more mash water than usual, and it tries to tell me that my boil size should be much higher than it is. This would be a nice feature to add.
     
  6. Craigerrr

    Craigerrr Well-Known Member

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    No disrespect, but I am with Nosy on this, it is trivial at most, and seems like splitting hairs a bit to me.
    I enjoy the hobby, and am most excited by making good beer to enjoy, I would not be interested in this feature personally.
    Again, I mean no disrespect, this is just my personal opinion.
     
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  7. oliver

    oliver Well-Known Member

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    great. and no offense, if you doesn't effect you, why poopoo on it? It's a feature I would like to see.
     
  8. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    My worry is the last few "features" added have broken a lot of other stuff. Yeah, it's easy, it's trivial, but then so is mash pH and we've been discussing those issues for weeks.
     
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  9. oliver

    oliver Well-Known Member

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    this is me shaking my head.

    I'm still pushing to see starter wort volume added to the recipe editor and the brew sessions. It makes a difference.
     
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  10. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    We'll discuss this and see what we can do.
     
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  11. Craigerrr

    Craigerrr Well-Known Member

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    I'm just thinking about the original question.
    Assuming you make a starter with X amount of water, and X amount of DME.
    Would the simple work around be to add that DME to the grist list, and deduct the amount of water used in the starter from the water volumes that the quick calculator gives you? Would this accomplish what you are looking for?
    I normally use two cups of water and a 1/2 cup of DME, but I normally decant about 1/2 of the resulting beer before pitching.
     
  12. oliver

    oliver Well-Known Member

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    no if you add DME and then subtract water your amount of sugar per volume of water does not reflect accurately.
    I'm beginning to use Propper Starter from Omega. Half a liter of 1.080 wort in a can, diluted to a 1 liter starter of 1.040 wort. And I don't decant either, no significant difference in flavor.
     
  13. Mase

    Mase Well-Known Member

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    I use Fast Pitch yeast starter from Northern Brewer. Made DME starters before, but like the hassle free aspect of the canned wort.
     
  14. AHarper

    AHarper Well-Known Member

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    Why not just reduce your Fermentor Losses to take account of the volume used in the starter? All other volumes remain the same.
     
  15. oliver

    oliver Well-Known Member

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    Because there is no extra loss happening in the brewing process. it's an addition of volume at the end. it's crazy to me how confusing this seems to be for others. Brewer's Friend does a fantastic job of guiding the brewing process with the equipment profiles and water volumes. But the spot I see it lacking is for those who pitch the entire starter into the fermenter. I'd also like to not have DME in my grain bill so it doesn't change percentages of the malt bill, and doesn't reflect on my brew sessions gravity. I'd like it to simply have a space of its own that reflects exactly what it is. I pitch the whole starter at the end of the brew day. It adds some sort of sugar amount because its fermented and it certainly adds volume.
     
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  16. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    Oliver, here's a calculator you can use. If the admins want to make a calculator of this or find a way to work it into the Brew Session (where I think it would logically go), they're welcome to use the logic there. The cells with the orange background are inputs, with orange text are intermediate calculations, the black text is the result.

    Aaaannnnddd.... I can't post it because the site won't allow .xls files to be attached, apparently. If someone in high places would give me their email address through private message, we could post the worksheet.
     
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  17. AHarper

    AHarper Well-Known Member

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    The only way to do it is to Zip it
     
  18. Craigerrr

    Craigerrr Well-Known Member

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    If this were a feature to be added, would it makes sense for it to be added to the yeast section of the recipe builder? Currently I believe that if you put a check mark where it says starter, it is just basically a note to self to make a starter. Maybe the feature could be to add another check box to add starter wort, and them allow you to enter details about your starter. It would need to automatically update gravities, ABV, water volumes, etc. Those not interested in this feature, don't need to use it.

    Does this sound like it would work Oliver?
     
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  19. BOB357

    BOB357 Well-Known Member

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    #19 BOB357, Apr 6, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2019
    Regardless of what you're using for starter wort, you still have the option of decanting, or not, prior to pitching. I fail to see why using canned wort would make any difference. I assume you were making starters before "changing" to canned wort.
     
  20. oliver

    oliver Well-Known Member

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    I don't decant. I pitch the whole starter. Some beers I make a starter, some beers not. But with the canned wort I'm more inclined to make starters and pitch the entire volume, as explained by the company's owner.
     

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