A stumble into foam control, or... ?

[pazu]

After writing this, I've come to the conclusion that the subject is probably widely known already as a technique, but since it was new to me, there's probably someone else out there that will find it new as well.

Just uncovered the carboy to find the situation in the attached photo.

A few things; the frozen baseball-puck cold pack has been there since about 3pm, and I took the picture at 6:30pm. Before I put the cold pack in the carboy handle, for the simple reason that it would fit there, the foam in the carboy was lower, and uniform in color.

After this and some other cold packs strewn below, a trash bag went over the frozen pack and carboy, then a foil-covered cardboard box went over, for darkness and to control heat accumulation in the carboy, and in the brew bucket beside it. Despite these attempts the carboy went from a morning temp of about 68F to about 70 in the picture, as the outside ambient temp had climbed to the mid-80's over the course of several hours. Still an acceptable temp was maintained, I'll get fresh ice packs in first thing tomorrow am and should be able to maintain cooler temps from that point forward.

Did the presence of the cold pack, nullify the foam, creating a flow in the foam, and the toasted marshmallow colored foam on the right edge? It is not bad stuff. I think it is a sediment buildup due to condensate effects on the other side of the foam column, where the ice pack is. Could be residual sanitizer that ran off of the glass due to the condensate, as well, it seems a similar color, though darker.

So, did the cold pack in containment at that location, actually retard foam development in the head space of this carboy? I'm thinking it did, and might even have prevented a blowover. Maybe not, I don't know!

More experimentation is necessary to be sure, but focused cooler temperature, and resultant condensation, seems to affect the surface tension characteristics of the foam and of the glass that contacts the foam, at the head space of the carboy.

Plus, cold packs are just plain cool :lol: thanks for any thoughts - John

 

[LarryBrewer]

Good picture.

Krausen normally gets brown parts on top as it progresses. You will probably get more as fermentation continues.

For the volume you have, that looks like plenty of head space - a 6.5 or 7 gallon carboy with about 5 gallons in it.

I do 5.5 gallon batches in 6 gallon better bottles - which practically requires a blow off tube. Dark beers, and high gravity beers tend to produce more blow off.

 

[pazu]

Thanks Larry it was your earlier caution about head space and blowoff potential that led me to split the batch into two vessels. I had said that I had a 6.5, but was wrong, it is only 6, so there's approx. 5 in this and another bit in the bucket beside it.

The condensation on the interior of the headspace, is present on the left inside but not on the right, above the browning. Check the pic attached, it looks stratified.



I think that the condensation on the inside of that glass in the previous post, cessated the rise of the bubbles, by diluting and breaking up surface tension enough as the bubbles rose to reach and meet the water droplets on the glass above them, to break the overall tension bond across the whole surface of those bubbles, dissipating the top layer in a wave out toward the other side, causing that darker area like seaweed washed up on a beach.

I can more closely examine the effect of cold packs and condensate in the head space on repressing the krausen, as time and brews go on. A large doughnut-shaped cold pack would be perfect to test with. No point in guessing, when I can do the testing.

I may get a time-lapse camera on that krausen, set up a sensor in the video FOV at the same time, to throw an audible alert over the stereo if the vid pixels do change to foam (evocam).

Looks okay though, I feel good about the batch so far!

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

another way to keep something cold is to put your carboy in a plastic tub with water in it at least half way up , you can freeze 2 liter bottles or milk jugs and ad them as needed, the water will equalize with the wort, you can take the water temp and know what temp your fermenting at, plus water changes temperature slower than air so you can keep a steady temp longer

 

[pazu]

Thank you QHB for the tips! I have a tub like that at the ready. Frozen 2 liter bottles is good, I'll get some freezing. I used the plastic tub I have to cool the wort, which became a fiasco for a few tense minutes, but worked out in the end. I'll have to post that cautionary tale.

I am really enjoying the spin stirrer by the way

 

[Nosybear]

I use a "redneck swamp cooler" in the summer to keep my beers a bit cooler during primary fermentation. You place the beer in a tub with some water in the bottom. Wrap the fermenter in a towel and allow the towel to wick up water from the tub. Put a box fan on the fermenter and towel. Works nicely here in high, dry Denver to keep the beer a few degrees cooler than my summer basement temps.

 

[pazu]

Thanks nosybear for the tips! Had a wet towel on my first ever starter, for this beer.

What do you guys think about cold/condensation possibly repressing krausen growth, QHB & NosyBear? Am I just an overexcited noob, looking for questions that don't need answers?

Check this pic. I posted it full-size so that the condensation and krausen could be more clearly seen. Looks like it was getting up there, but then was repressed. Of course, I'm seeing what I want to see...

Now, there's always going to be some condensation going on, in a foil covered box with bottles of brewing beer in it, and just in carboys in general, I get that. I think it's more the quantity and persistence of the condensation, coupled perhaps with the temperature differential, that could contribute to the breaking down of krausen structure thus preventing blowover.

Note that the foam is definitely higher, raised on the opposite side from the cold pack. Looks like it's been pushing a bit and then repressed, to me. Now, I've got the bigger ice pack on there to get through today. Forecast is for 80F, cooler than yesterday and I am in the trees, so should be fine.

I have no 2 liter bottles, so I filled gallon ziplocs that I'm freezing now, that should carry me through.

I appreciate all the advise, it has made all of the difference in getting through this clean so far. - John

 

[Nosybear]

RDWHAHB. It's your new mantra. Repeat it repeatedly.... I brew award-winning beers and don't pay nearly as much attention to as many variables as some in here. I'm not criticizing, we're all drawn to brewing for different reasons and attention to detail can never hurt. Here's what I obsess about: Quantities of ingredients (measurement). An adequate starter for the gravity and volume of the beer. Mash step temperatures (to within +1 degree). Steep times and temperatures when I don't mash character or color malts. Conversion. I measure but don't obsess over mash pH. Sparge temperature and time. Wort handling to avoid oxygen. Boil times and addition times of hops and spices. Quick heating to the boil and quick chilling to pitch temperature. Initial gravity to +/- two points. Screening as much hop debris as possible from the carboy. Oxygenation. Pitch temperature to +/- 5°. Sanitation. Primary fermentation at or below the midrange of the yeast's optimum temperature. Final gravity. Flavor of the final gravity sample. Lagering temperature if applicable. Sanitation while bottling. Amount of priming sugar for desired carbonation. Good bottle fill and immediate capping. Sufficient time to carbonate at or above 68°. The flavor of the final beer. I don't worry a lot about water, I don't have to. If I feel like it, I'll add some gypsum or calcium chloride to the mash, sparge or kettle but if I forget it, no big deal. I think of monks when brewing: Without thermometers, hydrometers, knowledge of enzymes or even what yeast really was, they made beer for centuries. They were process geeks: Do everything consistently, control what you can, and they made good beer. My interest is in the outcome and those things that contribute most to it (see my list above). RDWHAHB: Relax, don't worry, have a home brew. Mankind has been doing this for twelve thousand years and we mostly have it down. RDWHAHB, and your beers will come out fine!

By the way, your beer is never exactly the same temperature all the way through. So it's expected you'll have higher krauesen on the warm side.

Cheers!

 

[pazu]

:mrgreen: Wow NB thanks for the brain dump, I will read this over, and over again.

One quick question, does bringing wort to a fast boil, avoid enzymic reactions along the way, or save time, or... Why is that important?

Back from UPS & checked the carboy, I have zero doubt at this point, that the cold packs are breaking down the head of the foam, and settling it. I would likely have had some blowover without it and it could still happen, but part of the fun of this batch has now become dueling with this krausen, using cold alone! Note how high the residuals are now, I have not moved the carboy even slightly since I set it there.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

on the cold pack foam, read the low temp on your yeast packet and make sure your cold pack isn't going below that temp, the foam drop could be yeast going dormant, and we don't want that lol

 

[Nosybear]

The quick boil increases the hot break and saves a lot of time.

 

[pazu]

on the cold pack foam, read the low temp on your yeast packet and make sure your cold pack isn't going below that temp, the foam drop could be yeast going dormant, and we don't want that lol

Ouch! It's starter I made from liquid White Labs California Ale, the carboy thermometer reads just shy of 70F. I'll monitor, to avoid overdoing it.

 

[pazu]

Much as I tried to reason with it, the krausen would have none of this "cold packs suppress the foam" b.s. And I have arrived at a humility more befitting my experience. Have a laugh on me but not too loud 'cause it's not too bad.

I caught the situation as the foam was a few inches from the bung. I tried hosing down with cold water, it was ineffective. Ice packs were ziplocs frozen into awkward shapes; though I am sure that they made something of a difference at some point, I am even more sure, that cold packs are insignificant, when compared to the power, of the Force, er ah krausen.

The first whisp of foam breached the interior of the airlock. Tipping the carboy a few degrees, toppled the foam.

I've got the carboy in a plastic tub of cold water, should equalize at 65 or so. If it blows off, it will go into the tub (I've got the airlock ajar). This was a few hours ago, and the situation seems to have stabilized. Nothing ever left the airlock, so I guess I don't have to call it a blow off. Wonders what the morning will bring <---noob

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

Ha ha you did the right thing, it was probably getting too warm and the yeast love the heat but will give "off" flavors above the temps on your yeast packet, in most cases stay between 65 and 70 and you'll be fine

 

[LarryBrewer]

I am even more sure, that cold packs are insignificant, when compared to the power, of the Force, er ah krausen.

Spoken like a true brewing Jedi. The Krausen is strong with this one.

 

[pazu]

Heh. Moving forward, I pulled the carboy from the plastic tub & it's at 64.8. Still activity, no sign of issue & the beer bucket with about 1.5 gallon in it, seems fine. That one, has enough head space!

The temp still read 70 last night, but may been much higher under all of that insulating foam, as was mentioned it could be.

There is 'yeast accelerator' in it, by the way. I couldn't get yeast nutrient at the time.

It gets worse. At the end of the wort boil, I realized that I hadn't added the accelerator. I boiled it in a separate pan for awhile. Burned it. Boiled more in the now cleaned, separate pan. Smelled awful, by the way. I hesitated. I had a sanitized spoon, poured the stuff into the wort which was now off of the heat and stirred it in.

Hoping there wasn't beta amylase in it. Perhaps I did not need it, never had used it before.

The White Labs WLP001 liquid yeast that I put in the starter that I used, is rated best to ferment at 68-73F. With an ambient temp of about 73F, it is coming back up from about 65F.

Liquid yeast would do better with intermittent lower temps, right? EDIT I found no low temp threshold specified on the White Labs site, Just 68F recommended low for ferment.

 

[Nosybear]

I just keep remembering those ancient Mesopotamians making beer in earthenware vessels without thermometers, hydrometers, temperature control, understanding of yeast or water chemistry.... Bottom line, if you ferment in a carboy, you'll eventually need a blowoff tube. Or a lot of rags and water to clean up. It's very hard to do this - I remember when I was a noob - but don't worry so much. Temperature swings of a couple degrees from optimum will not irreparably damage your beer! I had my lagering refrigerator fail while I was away with an Oktoberfest in primary inside it and I don't believe that the warmth has damaged the beer - I'm just calling it an inadvertent diacetyl rest. If you don't have a way of maintaining constant temperature such as a repurposed refrigerator with a temperature controller, put the carboy in a cool dark place like a basement or cellar and just let the yeast work. They've been doing it for us for over 12,000 years and they know what they're doing. Styles like Saison exist because brewers couldn't control temperature so they found out they could make certain beers in summer and others in winter. That's why we have the Marzen and Oktoberfest styles - couldn't make lagers in the Bavarian summer! If you can't control the temperature, brew a style that ferments at the temperatures you can maintain - I have a carboy wrapped in a heating blanket to keep it warm enough for the Saison yeast to work. And remember the mantra....

 

[pazu]

I just keep remembering those ancient Mesopotamians making beer in earthenware vessels without thermometers, hydrometers, temperature control, understanding of yeast or water chemistry.... Bottom line, if you ferment in a carboy, you'll eventually need a blowoff tube. Or a lot of rags and water to clean up. It's very hard to do this - I remember when I was a noob - but don't worry so much. Temperature swings of a couple degrees from optimum will not irreparably damage your beer! I had my lagering refrigerator fail while I was away with an Oktoberfest in primary inside it and I don't believe that the warmth has damaged the beer - I'm just calling it an inadvertent diacetyl rest. If you don't have a way of maintaining constant temperature such as a repurposed refrigerator with a temperature controller, put the carboy in a cool dark place like a basement or cellar and just let the yeast work. They've been doing it for us for over 12,000 years and they know what they're doing. Styles like Saison exist because brewers couldn't control temperature so they found out they could make certain beers in summer and others in winter. That's why we have the Marzen and Oktoberfest styles - couldn't make lagers in the Bavarian summer! If you can't control the temperature, brew a style that ferments at the temperatures you can maintain - I have a carboy wrapped in a heating blanket to keep it warm enough for the Saison yeast to work. And remember the mantra....

Thanks! I do see your point, particularly about the blow off. I set this up earlier today, should carry me through.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

this funny and why we don't just fill it up to the top lol

Breathing Fermentor + Clogged Airlock = KaBoom!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... ulUaWyJIO8

 

[Nosybear]

Is that a greenhouse you're fermenting in?