A quick lager fermentation question

[Ward Chillington]

I brewed up a Pilsen Lager yesterday and used liquid lager yeast that didn't start so I pitched a packet of Salager 34/75 this morning and we are looking good now 12 hours later, Noting the instructions on the packet say the optimum fermentation tempature is 50 to 55F but I needed to get it up to 65-70 to get it started so now I'm wondering , how and when is the best time to start chilling things down?

Right now the wort tempature is at 59 and I have good and fast burping going on. My cellar is 49 degrees and the carboy is currently exposed to the cold air, What's the recommended process for moving to the cold?

 

[Nosybear]

Get it down as quickly as possible and do a diacetyl rest.

 

[J A]

When you say it didn't start, I assume that you had the temp at preferred fermentation temp. With dry or liquid yeast pitched directly at 60 or below, it'll take up to 24 hours to show any sign of fermentation. A big starter would likely show signs sooner, but would still look very sluggish by ale standards. You probably jumped the gun by re-pitching but unless you pitched at least 2 liquid packs for a 5 gallon batch, you were likely underpitched to begin with so it'll all turn out.
If you're at 59 and your air temp is 49, it'll ferment just fine. Let it ride and see how it turns out.

 

[Ward Chillington]

When you say it didn't start, I assume that you had the temp at preferred fermentation temp. With dry or liquid yeast pitched directly at 60 or below, it'll take up to 24 hours to show any sign of fermentation. A big starter would likely show signs sooner, but would still look very sluggish by ale standards. You probably jumped the gun by re-pitching but unless you pitched at least 2 liquid packs for a 5 gallon batch, you were likely underpitched to begin with so it'll all turn out.
If you're at 59 and your air temp is 49, it'll ferment just fine. Let it ride and see how it turns out.

Thanks Nosy and J A, yes, I pitched the liquid directly at about 60F then raised the temp a little with the warmer pad. The repitch was 12 hours later and we were looking flat. No sign of a starting krausen and very little sign of any off gasing. As impatient as I can be, I think I was right on this. I didn't use a starter and my OG was 1043. I used WPL 800 that was made in August 28 2018 with a best by date of February 19, 2019 so maybe I was on the down side of the yeast's viability? Along with that, the Saflager had a best by of September 2018 so also not at the optimum and given where I was 24 hours ago, I figured I had little more to loose and I wasn't going to get the punch of a full packet.

Otherwise, I'm feeling pretty good right now "lettin it ride".... we have krausen and we are at the topside of the optimum fermentation tempature range as the weather lady tells me we are headed into 3 days of an artic blast with single digit nighttime temps so that current 48 degree air temp is going to drop even more.

 

[J A]

Your initial pitch wasn't enough but it would have started. Given it's low viability, it was still in an extended lag phase and you would have seen activity eventually.
Use the yeast calculator when you're doing a lager. It'll tell you exactly how big a starter to use. Even a single packet of 34/70 would not have been enough. It'll turn out fine and starting at 60 and keeping it in a 50 degree space is pretty perfect.

 

[Nosybear]

Agreed with JA. So here's what will happen: Your yeast will have to reproduce more times to eat up all the sugars and in so doing, they will produce more flavors, particularly diacetyl. So what you'll need to do to "repair" the error is, when the fermentation is almost over, let the beer warm to as high as 68 degrees. The remaining yeast will consume the remaining SMM (diacetyl precursor) and you'll be fine, if maybe a slight bit more estery than a typical lager. For a normal strength lager, two packets of 34/70, rehydrated before pitch, are generally enough but again use the yeast calculator to be sure. Your beer will be fine with a nice diacetyl rest at the end, the underpitch warm, cool, d-rest cycle is an old one in homebrewing and it still works.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

With dry or liquid yeast pitched directly at 60 or below, it'll take up to 24 hours to show any sign of fermentation.

maybe a slight bit more estery than a typical lager.

Both these statements are right on the money. Lagers will take a lot longer to show signs of fermentation, it doesn't mean nothing is happening. The yeast are absorbing oxygen, excreting acids, synthesizing lipids and getting acclimated to their environment.

I pitch WLP830 at 42-44F. Lag times are up to 36 hours, even with a massive pitch of yeast. The temp is slowly brought up to 45F. This is about the only way I'm able to eliminate the fruity esters this yeast is known for. Pitching at 50F actually produces more esters than at 60, go figure. But when pitched 42-44F, it's super clean. 34/70 is very similar.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

I pitch 34/70 at 60F and slowly climb to 68F by day 10, the only thing I've tasted off is a little sweetness from the yeast, no flavor at all

 

[Ward Chillington]

Again folks, thanks for the knowledge sharing! I just checked in on things and we are at 52F and bubbles-a-blazing.

. Lag times are up to 36 hours, even with a massive pitch of yeast.

Got it HVM! Thanks!

 

[Ward Chillington]

I believe I am ready to start into my diacetyl rest on this batch and I need a little advise.

During the week I listened to Brad Smith's podcast with Dr. Charlie Bamford on diacetyl and his short description is no different than you all's advice and what I have read on it but the next question I have is much like the starting steps that Nosy helped me out with and that is a transition matter again. What's the best way to go into the diacetyl rest? Do I up my tempature quickly or do I go gentle?

Bamford says that if you are fermenting at say, 53F and your beer is half way to final gravity, you bump it up to 57 and keep it there until it's finished at FG then add a day. I am sitting just about there with my tempature being at 52.6 ( via the sensor pushed tight to the glass with some insulation around it to less reflect air temp) and my SG checked in at 1.022. My original gravity was 1044 ( target was 1049) and the target FG is supposed to be 1008 and depending how you measure it, we are 7 to 6 days in the carboy right now. So, hopefully you guys can check my math...halfway equals 1049 - 1008 = 41 / 2 = 20.5 SG points. My batch started at 1044, so 1044 - 20.5 = 1023.5 so close enough to move the batch up to 57 degrees F BUT...do I do it in one fell swoop or steps? Since we really are not talking a huge swing, does it even matter?

 

[Nosybear]

I believe I am ready to start into my diacetyl rest on this batch and I need a little advise.

During the week I listened to Brad Smith's podcast with Dr. Charlie Bamford on diacetyl and his short description is no different than you all's advice and what I have read on it but the next question I have is much like the starting steps that Nosy helped me out with and that is a transition matter again. What's the best way to go into the diacetyl rest? Do I up my tempature quickly or do I go gentle?

Bamford says that if you are fermenting at say, 53F and your beer is half way to final gravity, you bump it up to 57 and keep it there until it's finished at FG then add a day. I am sitting just about there with my tempature being at 52.6 ( via the sensor pushed tight to the glass with some insulation around it to less reflect air temp) and my SG checked in at 1.022. My original gravity was 1044 ( target was 1049) and the target FG is supposed to be 1008 and depending how you measure it, we are 7 to 6 days in the carboy right now. So, hopefully you guys can check my math...halfway equals 1049 - 1008 = 41 / 2 = 20.5 SG points. My batch started at 1044, so 1044 - 20.5 = 1023.5 so close enough to move the batch up to 57 degrees F BUT...do I do it in one fell swoop or steps? Since we really are not talking a huge swing, does it even matter?

Let the temperature rise gently. I usually raise mine to 68 degrees as a standard and get pretty good beer but I wouldn't argue with Charlie. Just turn the cooling off and let it rise.

 

[Ward Chillington]

. Just turn the cooling off and let it rise.

In my case, I'll be turning on the heat in my repurposed Styrofoam shipping container...thank you Nutrisystem subscriber whoever you are! I stuck my nose over the air lock a few minutes ago and got the littlest waft of Sulphur.

 

[Nosybear]

Sounds like you're doing it right, then.

 

[J A]

I stuck my nose over the air lock a few minutes ago and got the littlest waft of Sulphur.

I equate sulfur production at some stage of fermention with clean-tasting malt in the lager. When you consider that sulfur is an element and not a molecule, it can only be released by metabolizing and breaking apart sulfur-bearing molecules responsible for off flavors (cabbage, corn, garlic, skunk) as well as molecules that contribute to the other flavors (fruit, etc) associated with ales. If the sulfur is released during fermentation, it's not there in the finished beer.
If your fermentation chamber smells like a pickled egg fart, you'll be enjoying some good, clean lager when it's all said and done.