A musing upon how to apply the "Golden Ratio" to Hop additions

Discussion in 'General Brewing Discussions' started by Silver_Is_Money, Mar 24, 2021.

  1. Silver_Is_Money

    Silver_Is_Money Active Member

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    #21 Silver_Is_Money, Mar 29, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2021
    What I often dislike about software is the "hunt and peck" aspect of it. It's time for software to offer me a fully complete suggestion as to what to do with my hops, rather than me continually telling it what to do with my chosen hops, via my own hunting and pecking with both hop weight and time entry values which quite often I've merely pulled out of the sky, until finally after some degree of exhaustive effort on my part the "software" apparently satisfies all of my juggled inputs and thereby nominally matches or gets "close enough" to my initially intended output. If (for example) I want to end up with 27 IBU's and I want to do so for a specific anticipated volume and gravity of beer, and a specific boil time, and I desire to do so via 2 (or 3) chosen hop additions during the boil, why should I then be forced to further torture myself whereby to derive my own "inputs" purely by hunting and pecking with my own number entries when I'm using mans greatest (to date) tool of computation? Shouldn't this tool just tell me a complete set of "suggested" valid inputs with no hunting and pecking on my part (unless I choose to override) so I can get on with brewing?

    This is the philosophy I first initiated with 'Mash Made Easy' as to it's functioning as mash pH assistance software. As opposed to nigh-on endless hunting and pecking with various acid or base selections followed by the same as to quantity input additions for each selection until finally after great effort I have reached generally close enough to my desired mash pH target, it simply and straight away solves for all of its internally available acid and base choices and presents me with each of their requisite charge volumes or weights whereby to achieve the desired mash pH target, and then lets me pick one. No effort and frustration from "hunt and peck" via juggling addition quantities and acid/base choices, and instead simply an immediate set of specific pH target hitting answers is derived and presented for all of them. That's why I called it Mash Made Easy.
     
  2. Donoroto

    Donoroto Well-Known Member

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    Because the problem has an infinite number of solutions, the algorithm's designer will have to pick a method (such as Golden Ratio) to make it determinate.

    Some may prefer abdicating all responsibility for the result, others relish the challenge and variety it brings. If I were to design such a thing, I'd add a 'choice' button: DIY or Algorithm.
     
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  3. AHarper

    AHarper Well-Known Member

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    Well as for hops... I let Recipe Builder work out what each hops gives as far as IBUs are concerned BUT..
    I try to use Bittering hops at the start of the boil to give a base IBU level then Aroma hops near the middle to late on in the boil for about half total IBU then as much aroma hops quite near the end 5-10 minutes that bring up the IBUs to the required level. This doesn't always work though.

    Failing that I bung in what ever I have to hand - no well not quite. I use what the recipe tells me which means I go out and buy the required hops and stock up my freezer. I now have 27 aging hops in various amounts just dying for a new beer...

    I'm a rank amateur so I follow blindly what the system plus recipe and style option allows - except of course Style on the Recipe Builder is mostly so vague that it is almost useless to follow. You can plug in almost any mix of grains and hops that total what the "Style" suggests for ABV, IBU and SRM but it may end up tasting nothing like what the style should be. I have done this and had several brewers, more competent than me, say it would be nothing like what I intended. QED. Beware @Donoroto re Q2 recipe... :)

    Having said all that this is an interesting idea. Number 42 Hops perhaps?
     
  4. Silver_Is_Money

    Silver_Is_Money Active Member

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    Ah, of course, 42. The answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything.
     
  5. AHarper

    AHarper Well-Known Member

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    A good name a beer perhaps? I'll work on it.
     
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  6. Silver_Is_Money

    Silver_Is_Money Active Member

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    #26 Silver_Is_Money, Mar 29, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2021
    As to addition times:

    We might presume (for time) that the '1' found within 1.618 x 1 x 0.618 = 1 represents for both the 2 and 3 hop addition cases the midpoint time of the boil, or for a typical 60 minute boil example, 30 minutes of boil time remaining. And for only 2 additions it also represents the "null" case. Whereby in being "null", it is simply to be ignored for the case of 2 additions, as we find that even without its inclusion 1.618 x 0.618 = 1.

    Thus, in putting it all together (for the common example of a 60 minute boil):

    For 2 hop additions:
    1st addition is to be made at 48.5 remaining boil minutes, and equaling 1.618 x the IBU's target
    2nd addition is to be made at 18.5 remaining boil minutes, and equaling 0.618 x the IBU's target

    For 3 hop additions:
    1st addition is to be made at 48.5 remaining boil minutes, and equaling 1.618 x half of the IBU's target
    2nd addition is to be made at 30 remaining boil minutes, and equaling exactly half of the IBU's target
    3rd addition is to be made at 18.5 remaining boil minutes, and equaling 0.618 x half of the IBU's target
     
  7. Silver_Is_Money

    Silver_Is_Money Active Member

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    #27 Silver_Is_Money, Mar 29, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2021
    Classically I believe that all of the above should only apply to whole/leaf/plug type hops, as for pellet hops no one factually knows their addition time related IBU contribution impact (albeit that a Professor is currently working on this at Hillsdale College).

    The inference that for pellets one can simply multiply whole/leaf/plug by a factor of 1.1 while using the Tinseth math model is nothing more than a contrived fantasy.

    https://www.brewersfriend.com/forum...ion-at-whirlpool-seem-high.14059/#post-124207
     
  8. Donoroto

    Donoroto Well-Known Member

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    I heard an anecdote that pelletized hops contribute all their bitterness in the first 30 minutes. No idea if this is true.
     
  9. Silver_Is_Money

    Silver_Is_Money Active Member

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    See the link I posted above.
     
  10. Silver_Is_Money

    Silver_Is_Money Active Member

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    Correcting post #26 via the below, since it's too late for me to edit post #26, and this section of it is in error:

    For 3 hop additions and a 60 minute boil:
    1st addition is to be made at 48.5 remaining boil minutes, and with hops equaling exactly half of the total IBU's target
    2nd addition is to be made at 30 remaining boil minutes, and with hops equaling 0.309 times the total IBU's target
    3rd addition is to be made at 18.5 remaining boil minutes, and with hops equaling 0.618 x the IBU's of the 2nd hop addition
     
  11. Bulin's Milker Bucket Brews

    Bulin's Milker Bucket Brews Well-Known Member

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    But what was the question? :D
     
  12. west1m

    west1m Well-Known Member

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    "The Guide"
     
  13. Bulin's Milker Bucket Brews

    Bulin's Milker Bucket Brews Well-Known Member

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    Precisely.
     
  14. Silver_Is_Money

    Silver_Is_Money Active Member

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    For 2 or 3 standard (within the boil) hop additions I've reduced the subject of this thread (I.E., the application of the 'Golden Ratio' to a determination of IBU contribution per addition) to a simple calculator/spreadsheet.

    Download the calculator/spreadsheet at the "Google Drive" link seen below (by pressing the "down arrow" seen within the linked page, located next to the printer icon in the upper right hand corner) and then launch and run it within either Excel or LibreOffice Calc.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QR1r8TUdcMXoNi8MepdofD_CBVRtZ6Dc/view?usp=sharing
     
  15. Silver_Is_Money

    Silver_Is_Money Active Member

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    Rather than fumbling along through my mathematical trials and tribulations and even errors within this thread, use these shortcuts to achieving the Golden Ratio:

    TIBU = Total IBU's = Target IBU's

    1) For Two Hop Additions:

    0.618034 * TIBU = Addition#1

    0.618034^2 * TIBU = Addition#2

    2) For Three Hop Additions:

    TIBU/2 = Addition#1

    Addition#1 * 0.618034 = Addition#2

    Addition#1 * 0.618034^2 = Addition#3


    An observed (and usable) Golden Ratio oddity of interest, purely as an aside:

    0.618034/1.618034 = 0.618034^2
     
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  16. Minbari

    Minbari Well-Known Member

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    I didnt read any of this. so take this response with that in mind :p

    part of the beauty of doing home brew is experimentation and going to against the "rules" of what you should or shouldnt do.(within reason) this falls under that in my mind. if you are looking to make a copy of something that must fall into a certain styles then maybe not, but doing thins my way is half the fun
     
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  17. Frankenbrewer

    Frankenbrewer Well-Known Member

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    I agree with @Minbari. The fun is in picking your concoction and running with it. Getting some advice doesn't hurt but you are the head chemist, head brewer, head cleaner upper etc.
     
  18. Silver_Is_Money

    Silver_Is_Money Active Member

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    #38 Silver_Is_Money, Jun 10, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2021
    Since the "Golden Ratio" approach to hop IBU "quantification by addition" is literally new, I would be rather hard pressed to see it as a rule. It could only gain such potential status after many years and many thousands of trials comparing it against "hunt and peck" and eventually finding it to offer respectable and repeatable results. And even then it would only be a suggestion.

    Remember, we are not talking the "Golden Rule" here, but rather the "Golden Ratio". And it isn't like being forced to wear a mask....
     
  19. Donoroto

    Donoroto Well-Known Member

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    It us but one possible way to figure how much hops to put in and when. It has its elegance, but who can say what is best?

    As @Silver_Is_Money said, maybe years from now we'll perfect it all... but who can say what's perfect??

    Meanwhile, RDWHAHB. :D
     
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  20. Silver_Is_Money

    Silver_Is_Money Active Member

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    #40 Silver_Is_Money, Jun 10, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2021
    It may already be that much hunting and pecking and hop addition guessing spanning over many decades (to perhaps centuries) and many millions of brews have already "trended" hop IBU's per addition "generalizations" toward something akin to the Golden Ratio approach, albeit never recognized and thereby defined and quantified as such.
     
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