8 week old helles

Discussion in 'General Brewing Discussions' started by CRUNK, Jun 16, 2017.

  1. das alte

    das alte Member

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    A gelatinization rest at 149F for 15 minutes won't do too much regarding gelatinization. Although, gelatinization/dextrinization takes place at 149F it actually begins around 133/135F and continues up to denature. When an infusion method is used with a mash temperature of 149F it takes about 4 hours of constant temperature with a single enzyme to cause gelatinization and for the enzyme to produce enough Limit Dextrin to improve stability of the final product.
    Mash is boiled for a reason. Without boiling the mash amylo-pectin doesn't enter into solution at an appropriate level. The beer will lack body due to wort lacking in Limit Dextrin. .
     
  2. Trialben

    Trialben Well-Known Member

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    What about soaking mash overnight say for 12 hours then ramping up to first mash step?
     
  3. jmcnamara

    jmcnamara Well-Known Member

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    A 4 hour mash?
     
  4. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    Not necessary. I'd like to see a reference on that 4 hours at 149 degrees, pretty much upends centuries of mashing. According to Beer and Wine Journal, gelatinization temperatures are in the low 140's for malt. Gelatinization start pretty much immediately: The starch granules take up the hot water, swell, and become soluble. If the process took as long as you say, Alte, mashing would take at least four hours - the enzymes can't work on non-gelatinized starch. I believe you may be confusing barley with some other grain such as maize, which does take a higher temperature to gelatinize in a reasonable amount of time. Soaking mash for 12 hours is a good way to sour it. Most professionals convert in 30 minutes. Our standard hour single-infusion mash is just a safety mechanism. Any temperature above 145 degrees F should gelatinize (and more importantly, allow the enzymes to go to work on) your barley malt.
     
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  5. das alte

    das alte Member

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    When the word gelatinization was included in the recipe, it threw things out of kilter and I only explained what takes place. I cannot explain to you how to understand it. You do not understand gelatinization and what part it plays in dextrinization. Of course, enzymes work quickly. The same enzyme that is in malt is in saliva and it works at 98.6F within 10 minutes. If you read my post and understood it, I mentioned when gelatinization begins. Just not enough occurs without rupturing the amylo-pectin which requires temperature above 169F. The malt data sheet mentions the time that it takes for saccharification to occur and you have saccharification, conversion, liquefaction, gelatinization and dextrinization confused. You do not know the difference between simple starch and complex starch or what enzymes do with the starch. You, my friend have never seen mash jell if you soak malt in hot water. The starch is heat resistant and it is thrown out after you brew. Then, you purchase specialty malt to make up for it. Because the guy that told you to use the specialty malt has stock in the grain company. Then, after the beer having absolutely no body in it is enrolled in a contest, it wins medals. Great advertising campaign.
    You see, the books on making home made beer that you believe as gospel only include a single sentence, something like, gelatinization occurs at 149F or that trub is beneficial and stop. The problem comes up when the 20 or 30 pages that are needed to understand the sentence are omitted. The sentences are taken out of context which leads a person to believe something, which may be 100% true, but only when the rest of the instructions in the 20 or 30 pages that were omitted are taken into consideration. Purchase Wulfe's Journals instead of advertising magazines. The journals cost around $900.00. You may want to read a book written by Hahn's Christian Anderson. It is called The King Wears No Clothes.

    How does soaking grain an hour in hot water become a safety mechanism? It's the method used for producing malt liquor and moonshiners beer. It's already pretty much fail safe.
     
  6. jmcnamara

    jmcnamara Well-Known Member

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    You can leave the condescension and conspiracy theories at the door
     
  7. wobdee

    wobdee Member

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    The reason I put gelatinization at 149 in my recipe is that this is the temp that Best Malz recommend because there current crop had a higher gel temp. Its just a reference for me personally not an actual rule. Gelatinization can differ from crop to crop. Since I don't decoct anymore I like to use a higher modified malt with a more mash steps. This gives me attenuation in the low 80's with plenty of body. I agree a decoction would gel better a give me a few points higher efficiency but I'm happy with my current results.
     
  8. das alte

    das alte Member

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    Traily.

    Overnight mashing is not unusual. Keep the mash temp around 55F. The mash will not sour.

    You can soak grain in hot water until the sun burns out before enough gelatinization/dextrinization will take place before enzymes denature. The brewer threw confusion into the mix when he mentioned gelatinization. I cannot understand why gelatinization would be mentioned, perhaps, dextrinization would have been a better choice. Even so, at 149F very little will occur regarding gelatinization or dextrinization in 15 minutes if the mash wasn't boiled. Move away from it. It is out of context.
    Once in a while nature adds a 1-6 link in the amylose chain but it is far from being consistent. If you read about it in home brew books it appears that it is always there and there is enough of it for it to work. To eliminate inconsistency and to ensure that the final product will have body in it, mash is boiled. The amylo-pectin is released into solution and as long as Alpha hasn't denatured Limit Dextrin will form.
     
  9. jeffpn

    jeffpn Well-Known Member

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    What are all the rest of us making?
     
  10. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    Not sure. I guess all those judges and the pro brewers brewing my stuff don't realize I'm doing it all wrong. Finally, after all these years on Brewer's Friend, I think we have ourselves a troll.
     
  11. Trialben

    Trialben Well-Known Member

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    Ah the proof is in the pudding or should I say the beer :p. People have been making beer for thousands of years no need to get into a tuglewar about who's brewing method is best as long as it's decent drinkable beer that's the main thing ;). Have another beer and be happy.
     
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  12. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    You got it, Ben! So far that's been the spirit here. And it's that spirit I want to keep.
     
  13. Trialben

    Trialben Well-Known Member

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    @CRUNK
    Well off to my fave homebrew store Saturday to grab these ingredients for this Oktoberfest crunk will probably knock this one out in a weeks time. Ive got octoberfiest/ kolsch then choc coffee stout lined up.

    Interested in how your malty Amber Larger recipe is progressing?
     
  14. CRUNK

    CRUNK Well-Known Member

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    I am hitting the homebrew shop tonight, this weekend I am brewing Saturday and Sunday back to back, and I making my Carolina pulled pork, and coleslaw.

    Saturday I'm brewing the Amber lager
    Sunday I'm brewing a watermelon ale
     
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  15. Trialben

    Trialben Well-Known Member

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    Ah getting a head start ;). I will be away all weekend hombrew store is 330 clicks from where I live. Beauty is we have family up that way so we visit a lot lol:p.
     
  16. HighVoltageMan!

    HighVoltageMan! Well-Known Member

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    Maybe I came into this too late, but I'm confused. If this is the case, I do not understand the mashing process. Am I to suppose that my beer lacks body if I don't boil the grain or that I can't get proper conversion without mashing above 169F ? Step mashing does improve conversion efficiency, but the amylase enzyme denatures above 168F.

    It didn't take much effort to find this on the web:

    Barley starch is a mixture of amylose and amylopectin. The percentage of each component can vary and the length of amylose helices and the size of amylopectin molecules can also vary between different varieties of barley. And, as we’ve seen, starch is packaged into granules, and is associated with varying levels of proteins and lipids. As such, there is no one temperature that could be given as the gelatinization temperature for barley starch. Barley starch from malted barley typically gelatinizes in the 138–145 °F (59–63 °C) range, but various studies have documented temperatures from 126–154 °F (52–68 °C).

    When starch granules are exposed to hot water, the amorphous regions (composed of mostly amylopectin) begin to swell first. As the starch molecules begin to dissolve and are “opened up,” water molecules progressively become associated with the hydroxyl groups (—OH) on the outside of the molecule. This swelling disrupts the layered structure of the granules.

    Smaller granules — which typically have higher amylose levels and more protein on their exterior — gelatinize at slightly higher temperatures than the more amylopectin-rich large granules. (And remember, most of the weight of the starch comes from large granules.)

    Older studies have shown different patterns of gelatinization (with regards to how quickly large and small granules dissolve) in different barley varieties.

    If you’re looking to brew a dry beer, an initial rest in the 140–145 °F (60–63 °C) will help, but the starch may not be fully gelatinized at that temperature, so a “finishing” rest in the 148–152 °F (64–57 °C) should be employed to finish the mash. (If you want to be doubly sure, employing a mash out — raising the grain bed temperature to around 168 °F (76 °C) — would also be a good idea.)

    To me this, contradicts what you posted, unless I misunderstand. I have been brewing for a while and with great success. My beers don't lack body and my conversion efficiency is between 85-90%, sometimes as high as 95%. What am I missing or doing wrong?
     
  17. jeffpn

    jeffpn Well-Known Member

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    RDWHAHB. If you've made good beer in the past, just keep doing what you're doing.
     
  18. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. You don't have to understand general relativity to know things fall. Barley malt gelatinizes at and above 143 degrees F very quickly. It converts in an hour or less above about 149 degrees, but less than about 158. Lots of the post is technically correct but operationally useless at our scale. RDWHAHB and enjoy your beer.

    And I'll take John Palmer's advice any day. Great site you quoted!
     
  19. Trialben

    Trialben Well-Known Member

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    So @CRUNK no Kolsch malt at hombrew store. So im going to brew my bohimian floor malted pilsner with 34/70 then after this pitch my octoberfiest ontop of this yeast so should smash out this brew.

    Great news is hombrew store is opening a brew pub. So pick up some supplies grab a pint or three anf merrily head on me way win win me thinks:p.
     
  20. Head First

    Head First Well-Known Member

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    Where I get my supplies they have an excellent selection of good local (and some imports) beer and wine. Gives you a chance to partake in a variety.
     
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