Are all the high efficiency numbers I read about real?

[Nosybear]

And in regards to a comment above, the sparge pH does matter, but not for conversion efficiency. You want to acidify your water to around pH 5.4-5.6 for two reasons: One is to avoid the possibility of tannin extraction, the other is to increase the tartness of your beer. Yep, a bit of tartness can make the difference between a bright, pleasant beer and a rather lifeless one.

 

[ChicoBrewer]

My rookie opinion is that batch sparging is all you need for home brewing volumes. When I first started All Grain I fly sparged a few batches. It takes a long time and it's a PITA unless you have all the gizmo equipment. I have a House Pale Ale I make often. I target Kettle efficiency because I always leave a gallon of trub behind in my kettle. I use Iodine test to make sure my mash is converted.

Here are my numbers from my last batch:

• Conversion: 96.3%
• Pre-Boil: 75%
• Ending Kettle: 79%
• Brew House: 67%

This recipe requires 11.5lb of base malt at that efficiency. Raising the efficiency to 85% lowers that to 10.5 lb. 1lb of base malt isn't worth the effort IMO.

 

[Ron Reyes (Papa Piggy)]

Are you getting good extraction /hitting your preboil. You should be easily in 90,s on extraction if not it's the mashing. But if extraction is good it's in the kettle/ losses.

hmmmmm i dont typically do a pre-boil but I did this time. it was 1.041. the projected OG was 1.48 and i got 1.47 so that was not bad. by settings were at 65% so in the end I think i came in at 64%. I'm not at all worried about a couple points but do wonder why some folks are getting high 70-s to 80's if not more.

 

[Ron Reyes (Papa Piggy)]

stir like it owes you money, do a quick vorlauf, and open it up full way, .

hmm ok ill try that.

 

[Iliff Avenue Brewhouse]

And in regards to a comment above, the sparge pH does matter, but not for conversion efficiency. You want to acidify your water to around pH 5.4-5.6 for two reasons: One is to avoid the possibility of tannin extraction, the other is to increase the tartness of your beer. Yep, a bit of tartness can make the difference between a bright, pleasant beer and a rather lifeless one.

Interesting. I have been acidifying my sparge water to 6.0 per Martin's suggestions on Bru'n Water. I will have to research lowering a bit. Thanks for a heads up.

I myself get pretty inconsistent efficiency and it drives me crazy. Normally am in the high 60s to low 70s for brewhouse...

 

[Medarius]

With batch sparging, the beauty of it is that it's so quick. And you don't have to mash out.

When you're ready to sparge, drain your MLT completely. And the sparge water (no mash out), stir like it owes you money, do a quick vorlauf, and open it up full way, and drain. Think of it like a washing machine on the rinse cycle- agitate to get the sugars free flowing in the water, then drain it. You may find that a more complete stirring and faster draining will actually increase the lautering efficiency when you batch sparge.

?? I was under impression, from reading/viewing that a slower draining during sparge helped increase efficiency. (i.e. 1qt/min) I would be interested to read/view the papers that propose the alternative fast method , are there any links you could post for reading pleasure?

Thanks in advance

 

[Iliff Avenue Brewhouse]

?? I was under impression, from reading/viewing that a slower draining during sparge helped increase efficiency. (i.e. 1qt/min) I would be interested to read/view the papers that propose the alternative fast method , are there any links you could post for reading pleasure?

Thanks in advance

I would like to hear more as well. I usually collect my first and second runnings with my valve about half open.

 

[Craigerrr]

Some good info and advice in this thread also. My personal opinion, based on the advice received here, is that you are far better off getting consistency in your process so that you hit your volumes and gravity readings. Having recently switched from BIAB to mashing in a cooler, I am working through regaining consistency in my new process. Cheers, and good luck.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/forum/threads/should-i-care-about-efficiency.10497/

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

And you don't have to mash out.

That is true, it's not really necessary. But I pick up @ 5% by doing a mashout. So if your system makes it easy to do a mash out, then it's worth the effort. Adding more grain is easier for some.

I think the reason my efficiency is so high is from the system itself. With a RIMS the wort is circulated constantly, this agitates the mash which some say increases enzyme activity. So the stirring idea would be valid too. The second thing the RIMS does for you is step mashing is pretty easy, just adjust the temp up when you want to perform a step and your done. The third thing it does is it keeps the temp and pH even throughout the grain bed and when you add acids or salts for a pH adjustment, it mixes it in evenly.

For a typical mash, I do a first rest at 145-150F for 1-2 hours depending on the beer (German beers are mashed up to 2 hours), then it's step up to 158-160F for 10-15 minutes and then mash out at 168F for 10 minutes. Each step increases the gravity. I also noticed that if the pH is a little too high or low the efficiency drops a couple of points. The grain also is different from batch to batch, so that affects it as well. My sparge is a combo of fly sparging and batch sparging, I haven't run across anyone else who does it like that, but it works really well.

Each system is going to perform differently, no two are alike. Some will have greater efficiency than others, it's not a big deal. Pro's need to be concerned more about it because of profits. I personally would prefer both efficiency and great beer, but if I had to choose, I want great beer.

 

[Hawkbox]

Ok so what is a mash out in a batch sparge? I still get confused by terminology. Is Infusion the same as mashing in? I dump my heated water in, add the grains, stir it, let it sit for an hour, drain it, add more heated water, stir it, let it sit a bit, drain it. I actually have trouble with water because I clearly don't fully understand what all the terms mean.

 

[Yooper]

?? I was under impression, from reading/viewing that a slower draining during sparge helped increase efficiency. (i.e. 1qt/min) I would be interested to read/view the papers that propose the alternative fast method , are there any links you could post for reading pleasure?

Thanks in advance

Not if you're batch sparging. Once you stir it very thoroughly (think of the washing machine agitating the rinse water), you don't even wait a minute. Stir well, crack the valve open to vorlauf a little, then open it wide and let er rip.

My friend Denny is the king of batch sparging, so if you want to look at his page, it's here: http://www.dennybrew.com/

Also, keep in mind that some equipment may be more suited to fly sparging vs. batch sparging and vice versa.

Now, if you are fly sparging (continuous sparging), slow and steady wins the race, and a mash out is required.

 

[GFHomebrew]

This is how i understand it. A mash out is raising the temperature of the mash to De nature enzymatic activity.

I'm pretty sure Mash in and infusion mash is the same thing. Your infusing the grains at your strike temperature.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

mash out means raising the temp to 168F at the end of the mash time that stops the enzymes, it also softens the grain so the sparge can dig a little deeper

 

[Yooper]

Ok so what is a mash out in a batch sparge? I still get confused by terminology. Is Infusion the same as mashing in? I dump my heated water in, add the grains, stir it, let it sit for an hour, drain it, add more heated water, stir it, let it sit a bit, drain it. I actually have trouble with water because I clearly don't fully understand what all the terms mean.

A mash out is when you add water to bring the entire grainbed to 168 degrees and hold for 10 minutes to denature the enzymes before sparging.

Or, like me, if you have a HERMS or RIMS, you don't add water, but instead raise the temperature of the entire mash to 168.

It's not usually done with batch sparging, because your efficiency is better if you sparge with more water.
Another thing that is worth mentioning is that higher grain bills generally get a lower brewhouse efficiency. That's because you don't sparge as much, using more water in the mash. So if you've got, say, a 23 pound grain bill for a 5 gallon batch you may notice a lower efficiency vs a 10 pound grainbill.

 

[Iliff Avenue Brewhouse]

A mash out is when you add water to bring the entire grainbed to 168 degrees and hold for 10 minutes to denature the enzymes before sparging.

Or, like me, if you have a HERMS or RIMS, you don't add water, but instead raise the temperature of the entire mash to 168.

It's not usually done with batch sparging, because your efficiency is better if you sparge with more water.
Another thing that is worth mentioning is that higher grain bills generally get a lower brewhouse efficiency. That's because you don't sparge as much, using more water in the mash. So if you've got, say, a 23 pound grain bill for a 5 gallon batch you may notice a lower efficiency vs a 10 pound grainbill.

One last bit that I'm confused about. Denny says to sparge with about 185F water to raise the grain bed to 165-168F which is what I do. You note that isn't normal in batch sparging. Should I just be using 168F water?

 

[Hawkbox]

Thanks for the clarity guys, I was running on those assumptions but it's one of those areas people just seem to assume you know.

 

[ChicoBrewer]

Not if you're batch sparging. Once you stir it very thoroughly (think of the washing machine agitating the rinse water), you don't even wait a minute. Stir well, crack the valve open to vorlauf a little, then open it wide and let er rip.

My friend Denny is the king of batch sparging, so if you want to look at his page, it's here: http://www.dennybrew.com/

Also, keep in mind that some equipment may be more suited to fly sparging vs. batch sparging and vice versa.

Now, if you are fly sparging (continuous sparging), slow and steady wins the race, and a mash out is required.

Thanks for that. It's the clearest description of batch sparing I have seen. The bit about dividing the first and second running in half is something I will definitely try. I had been mashing out at the end and draining the mash water and making up the rest with the sparge.

 

[Nosybear]

Ok so what is a mash out in a batch sparge? I still get confused by terminology. Is Infusion the same as mashing in? I dump my heated water in, add the grains, stir it, let it sit for an hour, drain it, add more heated water, stir it, let it sit a bit, drain it. I actually have trouble with water because I clearly don't fully understand what all the terms mean.

Mash out is heating the mash via infusion, direct heat, etc. to a high enough temperature that the enzymes are denatured, generally somewhere in the mid- to high-160's. If you're batch sparging, you are mashing out as long as you get the mash temp up into the 160's. That's why people say it's not necessary to mash out if you batch sparge because you pretty much are mashing out as part of the process.

 

[Yooper]

One last bit that I'm confused about. Denny says to sparge with about 185F water to raise the grain bed to 165-168F which is what I do. You note that isn't normal in batch sparging. Should I just be using 168F water?

Oh, no you can do that and it's also a mash out technically. The thing is with batch sparging, it's not necessary to go that high in temperature since you'll be putting those second runnings onto boil with the first runnings very quickly which also denatures the enzymes. You can sparge with cold water if you want- it just takes longer to bring the runnings up to a boil.

If you want to go further down this rabbit hole, another guy I know has this awesome site with more technical details: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Batch_Sparging_Analysis

 

[Nosybear]

One last bit that I'm confused about. Denny says to sparge with about 185F water to raise the grain bed to 165-168F which is what I do. You note that isn't normal in batch sparging. Should I just be using 168F water?

That's how I do it - neighborhood of 170 degrees, add the water, stir, vorlauf, drain. The "raising the grain bed" thing is the idea of a mash-out, I've done it a few times and have gotten astringent beer. Yeah, you might get a point or two of gravity, not worth the risk to me.