Black IPA / experimental beer. "To Rye or not to Rye, that is the question"

[The Green Man]

Hello Brewers, A belated but Happy New Year to you all.
Well, with a view to my next but one brew I've designed my first Black IPA / twisted Stout. It's kind of for St.Patrick's Day, but in reality won't be at it's best in time. The bulk will be kept back for Summer time drinking. It should be tropical and citrusy with the hoppy, dryness of an IPA and the slick mouthfeel and full body of a stout/porter. Quite a weird combination I know, but that's the target.
Anyhow, I've decided to use Mosaic and Amarillo, which I can now get a hold of! I really like Mosaic, but have never tried Amarillo. I've used a lot of base malts and even some Rye Malt. This mainly an experimental thing, to see what it gives to the beer. I think this should be quite a dry beer, so I'm thinking that Rye (and Oats) should play nicely...but I could be horribly wrong.
What do you think?
Recipe link for your perusal below:
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/589295/st-patrick-s-bane

 

[thehaze]

If your Carafa II malt is not the Special type, which is dehusked, I would cut it down to maybe only 5%, as it could really turn on some heavier roasted flavours. The Carafa Special malts are the dehusked versions of the same malts, but without the astringency from the husks.

The oats are a nice addition, as I use them myself. The Rye malt is also nice.As base malt, simply go with either Pale or Maris Otter. My recommendation goes for Maris Otter.

The IBUs could be a bit too much, seeing that the Carafa will impart its own bitterness, so unless you are doing a balanced water profile, I would recommend cutting it down to maybe 65-70 IBUs.

Now the dry hopping, if you are expecting aromas from it... I do not think you will get it. 20 gr for 7 liters is way less than I would ever recommend. For about 20 liters, I use somewhere between 200 and 400 gr for dry hopping, in IPAs and Black IPAs. The last Black IPA I made had 280 gr and it was Amarillo, Simcoe and Citra. Very citrussy, fruitty and piney. But I still felt like it is not enough.

Now if you do not like hops and hop aroma, you will be fine with those additions, as it will be more like a bitter Stout/Dark Ale.

 

[The Green Man]

Cheers Haze. Was scrimping on the hops a bit. And, I hear you about the MO. I'm a big fan, but wondered if it would go down the stout road too far. I'm pretty sure the carafa is husked, it's weyerman and listed by my supplier as simply chocolate malt, not very helpful. I looked at the ebc's and made my own conclusions...
Thanks for the advice.

 

[GFHomebrew]

As above id just go with one base malt green man. You may want to up you dry hop and aroma additions if you want more flavour.

Whats your hops worth /100g over there this will decide how much you wanna throw at it.

 

[The Green Man]

As above id just go with one base malt green man. You may want to up you dry hop and aroma additions if you want more flavour.

Whats your hops worth /100g over there this will decide how much you wanna throw at it.

This year seems like we are getting more choice with hops, so very happy there. Decided to up the aroma and dry hops. Might drop the aroma addition in before the yeast. And leave it there, plus add the dry hops later. Had happy results with this last time due to my forgetting to add them at flameout...
Am going to buy 130g but keep 50g back to use in a MO&Mosaic SMaSH PA in March.

 

[The Green Man]

Well, brewed this up last night. I ended up using a lot more hops, but a screw-up by the supplier resulted in me having two bags of Mosaic, rather than Amarillo and Mosaic. I bit of jiggery-pokery with the hop additions and I managed to get a good IBU and weighted the additions heavily to 5 minutes and Aroma. I had some Saaz left-over which went into 5 minute and Aroma additions.
My Aroma addition was divided in two. One at flameout and a second put in before the yeast. Unconventional, but it gave a great result with my last PA. I'll be adding a big Dry Hop for the last three days too.
This will be an interesting beer, because I have opted to stick with a fairly large Carafa I addition, so it should be a quite dry, bitter, IPA-esque stout. The recipe calculator keeps it as a Black IPA, so we will have to wait and see.
Sadly, my efficiency is poor...I only got 1.050 OG at 8 litres, rather than 1.063 at 9 litres...Not sure, why? My grist, strike water, volumes and mash temps were spot on. I sparged with 3-4 litres at around 75c. I added 3 litres of cold water after the cool-down to reach 8 litres (any less seems like a lot of effort for not much beer ) and to get to pitching temp. It is also my method, because I can't boil up a larger volume (6 litres max), so I water / liquor back to get a decent volume.
Could be the ph. Still not doing anything with water chemistry, though have contemplated investing...

Bottle conditioning: Saigo Red Ale (Irish Red Ale)
Fermenting: St. Patricks Bane (Black IPA)
Drinking:...just finished Sakurajima Ruby Ale (Stout/ Porter)

 

[The Green Man]

Sampled an early bottle yesterday...I think I have actually made a superb beer. Not wanting to go overboard, but this is easily my best creation so far. And, this is with only one week in the bottle!
It is pretty much black in colour, has just the right amount of bitterness for me, beautiful citrus edge from the Mosaic, loads of body and I think the rye adds something special, a kind of taste complexity.
My only problem is that having never actually tasted a black ipa, I'm not sure if it is close. What I do know is that this is already a gorgeous beer. Give it a whirl and see.

 

[The Green Man]

btw, dropping an aroma addition in before the yeast really seems to be working for me.
Mosaic though not a bittering hop, did an admirable job with no unwanted tastes / harshness.