Fermenter options

[Brew Cat]

Interesting. I've never heard this before. Is there some reasoning behind the 1:1 ratio?

I'm surprised
it gets a bit complicated
With a squater tank you get less temperature stratification
A tank that is wider than high you will get more ester production so that's good for wheat and Saison and others
A Pilsner type where you don't want esters
A taller than wide fermenter
So 1:1 is the happy medium
Not to mention the spreading out of the krausen to release CO2 amongst other science things

 

[Dave Y]

you can ferment in anything but the H:W ratio of a corny keg is not optimal for fermenting in especially for yeast forward beer
1:1 is the preferred ratio or as close to it as you can get

yeah, but he's doing most of the fermentation outside the keg, transferring after high krausen.

 

[Bertden]

you can ferment in anything but the H:W ratio of a corny keg is not optimal for fermenting in especially for yeast forward beer
1:1 is the preferred ratio or as close to it as you can get

There is no excessive pressure since I use a spunding valve. Usually set below 10 psi.

 

[Megary]

I'm surprised
it gets a bit complicated
With a squater tank you get less temperature stratification
A tank that is wider than high you will get more ester production so that's good for wheat and Saison and others
A Pilsner type where you don't want esters
A taller than wide fermenter
So 1:1 is the happy medium
Not to mention the spreading out of the krausen to release CO2 amongst other science things

You've sort of ambushed my work production today.

https://brewingscience.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Lager-Yeast-and-Fermentation.pdf

I found this presentation on lager brewing that specifically states a fermentation vessel of 1:1 ratio is best, though it is left to the reader to infer why that's so.
Now I'm wondering if brewing an Ale, or something where yeast esters may be desired, would a ratio of 2:1 or 3:1 be "best case"?

And is this not just a commercial brewing discussion that has little implication on the homebrew scale?
You ruined me.

 

[Brew Cat]

View attachment 34522

There is no excessive pressure since I use a spunding valve. Usually set below 10 psi.

Exactly what I'm saying but a sounding valve is holding pressure unless
I'd you're looking for minimal pressure use an air lock then switch to the sounding after high krausen
It depends on the type of beer

You've sort of ambushed my work production today.

https://brewingscience.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Lager-Yeast-and-Fermentation.pdf

I found this presentation on lager brewing that specifically states a fermentation vessel of 1:1 ratio is best, though it is left to the reader to infer why that's so.
Now I'm wondering if brewing an Ale, or something where yeast esters may be desired, would a ratio of 2:1 or 3:1 be "best case"?

And is this not just a commercial brewing discussion that has little implication on the homebrew scale?
You ruined me.

Exactly
Wide and shallow and open if you dare for British and Belgian and Heffe
Maybe 1:1 for everything else
Large commercial breweries use mixers to simulate the same thing

 

[Brew Cat]

yeah, but he's doing most of the fermentation outside the keg, transferring after high krausen.

So then his keg is actually a bright tank not a fermenter so different rules

 

[Dave Y]

So then his keg is actually a bright tank not a fermenter so different rules

Kind of a hybrid then I suppose.

 

[Bigbre04]

honestly i dont think that at this size the vessel will make much difference as the pressure is so low. that being said, when you get into bigger tanks it does make a difference. BUT most tanks getting over 15 or 20bbls are going to be much taller then the 1:1 ratio mentioned above. At the homebrewing scale i wouldnt loose sleep on ratios. our 90s were able to sqeeze in through a standard bay door but were atleast 20-25ft tall. the question also falls into what does the geometry of the cone do to the height to width ratio.

and yes while they "fit" they had an inch of clearance at most...and standing them up inside of a building was FUCKING SKETCHY.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

Is there some reasoning behind the 1:1 ratio?

Actually there is. The surface area of a 1:1 is larger and the depth is shallower. This allows more co2 to escape and the yeast will become more "expressive" by producing more esters. As co2 concentrations are increased, ester production is reduced. It also is healthier for the yeast (less stress) and growth is increased with lower levels of co2.

That's the principle behind a yeast starter on a stir plate. The constant stirring not only introduces small amounts of oxygen, it also drives off co2. This also why pressure fermentations and tall cylindrical fermenters work so well for lagers, where yeast "expression" is not desired.

That's not to say you can't get any esters from beer that is fermented in a keg or tall, slender vessel. The temperature also plays a role, increase the temperature and the yeast will increase ester production.

 

[Brew Cat]

honestly i dont think that at this size the vessel will tmake much difference as the pressure is so low. that being said, when you get into bigger tanks it does make a difference. BUT most tanks getting over 15 or 20bbls are going to be much taller then the 1:1 ratio mentioned above. At the homebrewing scale i wouldnt loose sleep on ratios. our 90s were able to sqeeze in through a standard bay door but were atleast 20-25ft tall. the question also falls into what does the geometry of the cone do to the height to width ratio.

and yes while they "fit" they had an inch of clearance at most...and standing them up inside of a building was FUCKING SKETCHY.

I would probably just average the cone and use that
Do you have a mixer?
Most beer styles probably won't matter but something to think about when buying a fermenter

 

[Bigbre04]

I would probably just average the cone and use that
Do you have a mixer?
Most beer styles probably won't matter but something to think about when buying a fermenter

i dont have a mixer. none of the tanks that i have used have had one. i would not think that you would need one until you got very tall and big.

 

[Brew Cat]

the anvil that @Ozarks Mountain Brewery posted a picture of looks about right
maybe he can post it here for the archives

 

[Donoroto]

Fun fact: A vessel at 1:1 uses the least amount of material to hold a given volume.

 

[Josh Hughes]

My beers got better when I went from fermenting in a keg to the all rounder. It was possibly due to the how the beer sits in there. Didn’t know about the ration but German brewing using a shallow fermenter is sort of what happens when I went from stall corny to the all rounder.

Or it’s in my hesd

 

[Megary]

The surface area of a 1:1 is larger and the depth is shallower. This allows more co2 to escape and the yeast will become more "expressive" by producing more esters. As co2 concentrations are increased, ester production is reduced. It also is healthier for the yeast (less stress) and growth is increased with lower levels of co2.

That's the principle behind a yeast starter on a stir plate. The constant stirring not only introduces small amounts of oxygen, it also drives off co2. This also why pressure fermentations and tall cylindrical fermenters work so well for lagers, where yeast "expression" is not desired.

So now I'm completely confused. If I'm reading you correctly (a big if) you are saying that a 1:1 would be better for yeast expression (in my mind, ale yeast) and not for lager yeast. This seems opposite to the Brewing Science link I posted above which specifically said that for lager brewing:

Fermentation
• Temperature is the most important fermentation parameter as far as flavor
• Higher temperatures result in higher esters and fusel alcohols
• 1:1 height to width ratio produces best beer
• Vertical liquid height not to exceed 35’
• Hydrostatic pressure and stripping affects of CO2 evolution important
• Cone cooling important for sedimenting yeast

I'm glad I'm a small batch home brewer and probably have no reason to pay much attention to this.

 

[Brew Cat]

You don't really have to worry as most small fermenters that are for sale match the 1:1 ratio
this side discussion was about the problems of using a corney keg as a fermenter

 

[Brew Cat]

I do have a wine bucket that is 1.2:1
wine needs the wider fermentation bucket
I use that one for wheats and any expressive ales

 

[AnokaBrewer]

Allrounder with pressure kit FTW

I would agree. I am very happy with mine. You can see what is going on, and they are nice and easy to clean.