Multiple sparges

[Matt Sego]

I have a question about multiple sparges. The forum seemed to say that too much sparging will cause astringency. My concept of mashing is to convert the starches to sugars, and sparging is to retrieve more sugars from the grains after the mashing run off. I have a Brewzilla and circulate the mash and sparge, using just enough water each stage to keep the grains covered in liquid. I am able to sparge three to four (3-4) times hoping to squeeze more sugars each time. My question is: Can you sparge too much? And if so, how many times is too much?
Matt

 

[Minbari]

If you fly sparge already, no need to sparge at the end. Can you? Sure, but i would limit it.

 

[Dave Y]

I have a question about multiple sparges. The forum seemed to say that too much sparging will cause astringency. My concept of mashing is to convert the starches to sugars, and sparging is to retrieve more sugars from the grains after the mashing run off. I have a Brewzilla and circulate the mash and sparge, using just enough water each stage to keep the grains covered in liquid. I am able to sparge three to four (3-4) times hoping to squeeze more sugars each time. My question is: Can you sparge too much? And if so, how many times is too much?
Matt

Greetings Matt,
There is an element of truth to what you're getting at, but as with many things in brewing, we often blow it out of proportion.

I am running an All in One Anvil 18, but use a Digiboil kettle to sparge with; so not truly all in one. When you say "multiple sparges", I think we need to understand what you're saying. We're sparging to
1) extract as much of the sugars as we can practically from the grains
2) achieve our pre-boil volume.

If you're sparging a part of the way and holding, then sparging again, then holding and still getting to your pre-boil volume, that will work but your grains will be cooling as you wait. You could do one somewhat slow sparge until you get to your volume, sure.

The key thing is that once you've extracted all of the sugars, continuing to circulate - wort or water can bring some astringency, but as long as there are sugars left in the wort, you should be good.

The best sparges I've done were hot, and relatively quick. I've done cold sparges a few times, owing to a kettle issue for the sparge water each time and each of those times it was a bit more of a chore to get my gravity pre-boil.

IMO, a 3-4 round sparge is probably fine in most home brew cases, excepting some unusual 'corner cases' like you mashed overnight and there's literally nothing left to extract from the grains (?)

 

[Matt Sego]

Greetings Matt,
There is an element of truth to what you're getting at, but as with many things in brewing, we often blow it out of proportion.

I am running an All in One Anvil 18, but use a Digiboil kettle to sparge with; so not truly all in one. When you say "multiple sparges", I think we need to understand what you're saying. We're sparging to
1) extract as much of the sugars as we can practically from the grains
2) achieve our pre-boil volume.

If you're sparging a part of the way and holding, then sparging again, then holding and still getting to your pre-boil volume, that will work but your grains will be cooling as you wait. You could do one somewhat slow sparge until you get to your volume, sure.

The key thing is that once you've extracted all of the sugars, continuing to circulate - wort or water can bring some astringency, but as long as there are sugars left in the wort, you should be good.

The best sparges I've done were hot, and relatively quick. I've done cold sparges a few times, owing to a kettle issue for the sparge water each time and each of those times it was a bit more of a chore to get my gravity pre-boil.

IMO, a 3-4 round sparge is probably fine in most home brew cases, excepting some unusual 'corner cases' like you mashed overnight and there's literally nothing left to extract from the grains (?)

Thank you Dave. For more clarification, my all-in-one (Brewzilla 3.11) holds 8 gal max. Before I even start the mash, I heat all of the water I plan to use, to 160 degrees, then drain and retain most in a separate bucket, and start the mash, adding previously heated water and grain till I get the original mashing step, 152 degrees 60 to 90 minutes. Then 170 degrees for 10 minutes. I drain as much as I can, add hot water, heating it up to 170 for 10 minutes, drain, and repeat (I believe this is batch sparging) until I get my boil volume. Sometimes, it will take 2 to 3 sparges to get the volume. I could do more as my mash volume is usually around 2 gallons in a circulating, heat controlled system. I am just worried that excessive sparging will affect my final product. It all depends on who is advising.

 

[Craigerrr]

Short answer
The more times you sparge the lower the gravity of the runnings will get, to a point that there is... no point.
Way in olden times they would sparge multiple times. Each running became a separate batch. The Lords and Ladies would drink the beer from the first runnings. The management staff and chamber keepers would drink the beer made from the second runnings. The kitchen and grounds staff would get the beer made from the third runnings.
There isn't likely enough gravity points in any further runnings to make anything worth drinking.

A single sparge should be all you need to do.
But by all means, experiment with it.

As far as tannins from sparging, I don't know about that.

 

[Craigerrr]

I thought was a short answer, but it got long!

Welcome to the forum!

 

[Donoroto]

Sparge and rinse are two sides if the same coin. Sparge includes high temperatures to stop conversion, while they both rinse the grain bed to recover sugars.

In my brewzilla I rinse once with about 1.5 gallons of hot water. More than that doesn’t recover much more sugar.

 

[Brew Cat]

Sparge and rinse are two sides if the same coin. Sparge includes high temperatures to stop conversion, while they both rinse the grain bed to recover sugars.

In my brewzilla I rinse once with about 1.5 gallons of hot water. More than that doesn’t recover much more sugar.

your confusing sparging with mashout
like @Craigerrr mentions you sparge to party gyle or lauter
in brew in a bag or brew in a basket you don't need to do either although you may get a few more pts doing a rinse
before brew in a bag we would sparge to lauter all beers and to set the bed another thing that is not done much anymore since people now do AIO brewing
IMO mashing is becoming a lost art

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

The forum seemed to say that too much sparging will cause astringency.

Yes, if the pH goes above 6. Adding a small amount of acid to the sparge water can reduce the chances of extracting tannins (the source of astringency) is reduced. The lower pH keeps the tannins in the grain husks where they belong.

Can you sparge too much? And if so, how many times is too much?

Yes. If you can't get all the sugars out with a single sparge, you need to re-evaluate your process. Even a parti gyle mash is usually only a single sparge, once in a while 2. It sounds like you are not using enough volume of water (liquor) to sparge a single time. It does help to slow the flow down in the sparge to increase efficiency and it seems to me you are struggling to increase efficiency.

IMO mashing is becoming a lost art

Not sure what you mean by that, but I think homebrewers are getting better overall, especially in the last 10 years. The overall average homebrewer is much more informed than 10 years ago and certainly more than 20 years ago when I started.

 

[Brew Cat]

Yes, if the pH goes above 6. Adding a small amount of acid to the sparge water can reduce the chances of extracting tannins (the source of astringency) is reduced. The lower pH keeps the tannins in the grain husks where they belong.

Yes. If you can't get all the sugars out with a single sparge, you need to re-evaluate your process. Even a parti gyle mash is usually only a single sparge, once in a while 2. It sounds like you are not using enough volume of water (liquor) to sparge a single time. It does help to slow the flow down in the sparge to increase efficiency and it seems to me you are struggling to increase efficiency.

Not sure what you mean by that, but I think homebrewers are getting better overall, especially in the last 10 years. The overall average homebrewer is much more informed than 10 years ago and certainly more than 20 years ago when I started.

Before all in one there was BIAB before that there was batch sparge and before that there was fly sparge
I've tried them all
on an AIO only you loose all that and you cant easily do decoction so most don't even try
not to mention mashing with hot rocks( yes Ive done it)


the only reason today's brewer is more informed than 20 yrs ago is the internet and half of that information is useless and does nothing but over complicate things
maybe ignorance is bliss
all that knowledge and equipment is actually killing the hobby
I tell people they should home brew and the answer I get is its to complicated or to expensive
I've shown a few people the process and try to show them the least complicated method I can

 

[Megary]

I agree that homebrewing has gotten too complicated and too expensive. The DIY aspect of it has kinda fallen by the wayside and imo, the message being sent is that a new homebrewer needs to invest in the hobby in order to make good beer. Hey..why would More Beer want to sell a brew bag when it can sell a $500+ All-in One??

 

[Minbari]

I agree that homebrewing has gotten too complicated and too expensive. The DIY aspect of it has kinda fallen by the wayside and imo, the message being sent is that a new homebrewer needs to invest in the hobby in order to make good beer. Hey..why would More Beer want to sell a brew bag when it can sell a $500+ All-in One??

True, there are a few on here that brew in a Pot on the stove and make 3gal batches in the most simple way.

Then you got people like me that like over complicated.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

Before all in one there was BIAB before that there was batch sparge and before that there was fly sparge
I've tried them all
on an AIO only you loose all that and you cant easily do decoction so most don't even try
not to mention mashing with hot rocks( yes Ive done it)


the only reason today's brewer is more informed than 20 yrs ago is the internet and half of that information is useless and does nothing but over complicate things
maybe ignorance is bliss
all that knowledge and equipment is actually killing the hobby
I tell people they should home brew and the answer I get is its to complicated or to expensive
I've shown a few people the process and try to show them the least complicated method I can

Yeah, maybe. Homebrew beer is better than it’s ever been and it’s not because technology has done it alone. The technology and new equipment have given brewers the tools to improve the quality of their beer and knowledge has also expanded by leaps and bounds, increase the beer quality even more. It’s like saying NASCAR or NHRA drag racing would be better with Model T’s.

 

[Dave Y]

on an AIO only you loose all that and you cant easily do decoction so most don't even try
not to mention mashing with hot rocks( yes Ive done it)

I have to admit, I'm going to have to look up mashing with hot rocks. I've mashed and boiled exclusively with a wood fire in a brew before, that was more work than I expected and a long day.

As to decoction, I've watched videos, tutorials and talked about it with other brewers. I will admit it's intimidating and every time I consider it, I rule it out on practicality grounds.

all that knowledge and equipment is actually killing the hobby
I tell people they should home brew and the answer I get is its to complicated or to expensive
I've shown a few people the process and try to show them the least complicated method I can

My starting process was pretty simple, but then as a n00b, what if you don't do it right? Who do you go to with questions and how can converse with a more experienced brewer?
Think about how we try to help troubleshoot here, we blast out a bunch of questions with a lot of terminology the n00b may not know.
I guess I'm saying there's a happy medium between simple and advanced and it's going to be use case different.

 

[BarbarianBrewer]

Welcome to the forum @Matt Sego! As you can see when you ask us a question you'll get your question, and then some!

I think @HighVoltageMan! answers your question the best. pH determines when you should stop sparging. If you don't have a pH meter (I don't) then I think as long as the gravity of your sparge output (runnings) is above 1.010-ish, you should be good.

Yes, if the pH goes above 6. Adding a small amount of acid to the sparge water can reduce the chances of extracting tannins (the source of astringency) is reduced. The lower pH keeps the tannins in the grain husks where they belong.

I batch sparge in a picnic cooler and rarely sparge more than once. The only time I do is to simply meet pre-boil volume.

 

[Bigbre04]

I "sparge" twice for every brew. specifically because my grain tube can only hold 95lbs max, while my smallest recipe is roughly 112lbs. so i end up doing two separate mashes and 2 separate sparges. its really a dumb system.

Sparging is a very normal part of brewing beer. I wouldnt stress about it. You wont notice a difference in astringency.

 

[Craigerrr]

Rinse is what I do to the dishes before I put them in the dishwasher, let's not split hairs. Call it what you want. However you extract more sugar from the grains is a sparge to me and a rinse to others. Semantics in my opinion.
One rinse/sparge will do the trick

 

[Zambi]

True, there are a few on here that brew in a Pot on the stove and make 3gal batches in the most simple way.

That's me

I do sparge/rinse, but with coolish water.
I need to top up after the mash anyway so I figure getting some sugars out of the semi-spend grains is an added benefit

 

[west1m]

Yup, I do more of a "rinse" as well. I am not as OCD as most over my wort gravity. My system is dialed in enough to just go by volume and when checked ,is usually where it needs to be. I mash about 5.5 gal to start, lift the basket to drain . Add 170 degree "sparge" water by the pint ,usually about 2 gal, and stop draining when I get to about 6 to 6.5 gal (depends on hop schedule). Lift up the basket and slide a bucket under it. Any more that runs out is mostly water and gets tossed.
Like everyone says , ask ten brewers get ten answers.
PS. My beer tastes like beer to me!

 

[Craigerrr]

Yup, I do more of a "rinse" as well. I am not as OCD as most over my wort gravity. My system is dialed in enough to just go by volume and when checked ,is usually where it needs to be. I mash about 5.5 gal to start, lift the basket to drain . Add 170 degree "sparge" water by the pint ,usually about 2 gal, and stop draining when I get to about 6 to 6.5 gal (depends on hop schedule). Lift up the basket and slide a bucket under it. Any more that runs out is mostly water and gets tossed.
Like everyone says , ask ten brewers get ten answers.
PS. My beer tastes like beer to me!

Exactly what I did when mashing in my Brewzilla with the rinse/sparge