Taste treshold

[Zambi]

Something I've been wondering for a while...
Sometimes a malt addition is only like 2%. Can you actually taste that (like a caramalt) or would that be for colour?

I know everyone is different, but thought it would be interesting to discuss.

Me, I seem to have a low treshold for caramel flavours. I find them overbearing very quickly.
(I am drinking Q4 now, and there must be a time thing here as well, as suddenly I find it very caramelly, which gives me an excuse to finish it tonight or tomorrow)

But I'm not only talking grains, also hop, other additives, alcohol percentage, mash temperature, hop addition time etc.
I figure I wouldn't be able to taste the difference between a 4.6 and 4.7 percent beer. Probably only between 4 and 6 percent.

So overall query I got with lots of recipes:
But can you taste it...

Yep, I'm rambling a bit but I hope you get my point

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

one thing you might be dealing with is your water or the gravity being different, many things can come into play as far as strong or weak flavors

 

[Bigbre04]

Something I've been wondering for a while...
Sometimes a malt addition is only like 2%. Can you actually taste that (like a caramalt) or would that be for colour?

I know everyone is different, but thought it would be interesting to discuss.

Me, I seem to have a low treshold for caramel flavours. I find them overbearing very quickly.
(I am drinking Q4 now, and there must be a time thing here as well, as suddenly I find it very caramelly, which gives me an excuse to finish it tonight or tomorrow)

But I'm not only talking grains, also hop, other additives, alcohol percentage, mash temperature, hop addition time etc.
I figure I wouldn't be able to taste the difference between a 4.6 and 4.7 percent beer. Probably only between 4 and 6 percent.

So overall query I got with lots of recipes:
But can you taste it...

Yep, I'm rambling a bit but I hope you get my point

So for grain:
Some types of grain become really overbearing at low percents. the best example that i have personally are roasted malts. Another example that i found out the hard was was with things like Honey malt. At a low percentage it adds a good honey flavor that is subtle and nice, but in high percents it becomes off-putting(to me).

Caramel malt flavor to me starts to become more prominent as a beer ages and the hops degrade and change. I honestly think that I overuse caramel malts in some of my lagers and have been chipping away at percentages over time. I have had the esteemed opportunity(but is it really?) to do sensory panels on beers that were made on the same recipe for long periods of time. IPAs are best drank fresh, but a year old strong IPA is a totally different beer then a 1 month old one. The caramel malts really rise to the surface as the hops get more and more funky. They can be alright, but you know what you are drinking is not right. Big imperial stouts will lose some of the roastiness and will mellow overtime as they age. I actually have a 14% giant first runnings stout that i have been saving for years. If it isnt vinegar(which it shouldnt be) it will be truely decadent when i open it.

For overall percentages, think about it like layering flavors. If you add only 2 percent of something to a big beer you wont really notice it, but it will be there building up or helping to prop up other flavors. A good example is in all of our recent stout talks, adding c40 to to a big dark stout wont really be a leading flavor but when you layer in c40, c120 and chocolate malt, you are basically building up a sweetness flavor profile that you could not achieve from just adding chocolate malt or just c120.

Maybe the best way to think about is garlic. You can taste garlic in alot of stuff, but if you read ingredeints it is frequently present even when you cant taste it since it helps other flavors become more apparent.

I do the same thing with small amounts of vanilla in beers. at a very low percent it adds a subtle sweetness that you cant put your finger on but that plays nicely with alot of flavor profiles, especially when mixed with fruit and lactose it adds a lot with a very small %.

Hope that makes sense, i was being talked at by a bartender(this is the techno/house music bartender who replaced my silence/clutch with noise) and bouncing around doing stuff.

 

[Zambi]

one thing you might be dealing with is your water or the gravity being different, many things can come into play as far as strong or weak flavors

that's exactly what I find interesting.
I like Belgian beers, but I've never been a fan of dubbels and quadrupels, whereas I love blondes and tripels...

Just interested in what everyone else can taste in small doses.

Water & gravity are good ones to look into. I generally brew beers with an OG of about 1.040 to 1.056
Not much into water treatment yet, I got fairly soft water

 

[Megary]

For me, caramel/crystal malts that aren't balanced with a firm bitterness from the hops or offset by the roasty bitterness of a dark malt come across as lip sticking sweet.

In the US, Sierra Nevada Pale Ale is long considered the gold standard for American Pale Ales. The beer is described as having a subtle sweetness from caramel malt, but I simply can't make it through a full bottle without salty pretzels by my side. Now most people love this beer, but as far as I'm concerned, it needs at least another 25-30 IBU's to become drinkable. So yeah, caramel malts are a bit tricky for me.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

I honestly think that I overuse caramel malts in some of my lagers and have been chipping away at percentages over time

I got to the point that I never use caramel malt in lagers or in PA/IPA, or I use very little, I use Munich malt instead to get some color and flavor without the sweetness. I don't know if there is a specific caramel flavor, but to me the beer comes across as flabby or has a very rounded finish. I like beer best when it's crushable, caramel malts make beer less so.

In the US, Sierra Nevada Pale Ale is long considered the gold standard for American Pale Ales. The beer is described as having a subtle sweetness from caramel malt, but I simply can't make it through a full bottle without salty pretzels by my side. Now most people love this beer, but as far as I'm concerned, it needs at least another 25-30 IBU's to become drinkable. So yeah, caramel malts are a bit tricky for me.

I have great respect for that beer, but I feel the same way about it. It seems a bit heavy handed, but it still is a great beer when your only other choice is Bud Light. Now if Bitburger were on tap, whoa boy, I'm in trouble.

 

[Megary]

I got to the point that I never use caramel malt in lagers or in PA/IPA, or I use very little, I use Munich malt instead to get some color and flavor without the sweetness. I don't know if there is a specific caramel flavor, but to me the beer comes across as flabby or has a very rounded finish. I like beer best when it's crushable, caramel malts make beer less so.

I have great respect for that beer, but I feel the same way about it. It seems a bit heavy handed, but it still is a great beer when your only other choice is Bud Light. Now if Bitburger were on tap, whoa boy, I'm in trouble.

I suppose I did, but I wasn’t trying to knock the beer, rather my taste threshold for caramel malts. And yes, if I’m at a cookout and the choices are SNPA or some nondescript yellow thing, then I will surely grab a Vodka-Soda.

 

[Bigbre04]

I got to the point that I never use caramel malt in lagers or in PA/IPA, or I use very little, I use Munich malt instead to get some color and flavor without the sweetness. I don't know if there is a specific caramel flavor, but to me the beer comes across as flabby or has a very rounded finish. I like beer best when it's crushable, caramel malts make beer less so.

I have great respect for that beer, but I feel the same way about it. It seems a bit heavy handed, but it still is a great beer when your only other choice is Bud Light. Now if Bitburger were on tap, whoa boy, I'm in trouble.

That is so interesting. I dont find Sierra nevada pale ale to be overly malty, I actually just had it fresh for the first time at thier facility in Asheville and it was really good! To me, the style dictates the malts. A Vienna Lager should have some nice malty flavor with a light balance of Hops. IPAs are so varied at this point that they can be anything from black to red to crystal clear.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

I suppose I did, but I wasn’t trying to knock the beer, rather my taste threshold for caramel malts.

I didn't think you knocked, it just that its not as "snappy" as other beers, on a cold winter night it hits the spot. It would be interesting to try straight from the brite tank, could be a whole other beer than the old stuff I get in the liquor store around here.

 

[Minbari]

Something I've been wondering for a while...
Sometimes a malt addition is only like 2%. Can you actually taste that (like a caramalt) or would that be for colour?

I know everyone is different, but thought it would be interesting to discuss.

Me, I seem to have a low treshold for caramel flavours. I find them overbearing very quickly.
(I am drinking Q4 now, and there must be a time thing here as well, as suddenly I find it very caramelly, which gives me an excuse to finish it tonight or tomorrow)

But I'm not only talking grains, also hop, other additives, alcohol percentage, mash temperature, hop addition time etc.
I figure I wouldn't be able to taste the difference between a 4.6 and 4.7 percent beer. Probably only between 4 and 6 percent.

So overall query I got with lots of recipes:
But can you taste it...

Yep, I'm rambling a bit but I hope you get my point

I think that too. mine finished at 1.015 and it is still too sweet.

I am not sure if it makes a huge difference, like if you changed a recipe from 2% to 3%, but it would depend on what it was. small changes in something like cara120 or black450 would be very noticeable.

 

[Craigerrr]

This is a great topic!
To add to @Bigbre04 's comments, vanilla for instance, is used to enhance chocolate flavor.
It sound counterintuitive because we think in terms of vanilla and chocolate being opposite, kind of like salt and pepper.
In the right amount, you would never pick the vanilla flavor out if you didn't know it was there.

 

[Bigbre04]

This is a great topic!
To add to @Bigbre04 's comments, vanilla for instance, is used to enhance chocolate flavor.
It sound counterintuitive because we think in terms of vanilla and chocolate being opposite, kind of like salt and pepper.
In the right amount, you would never pick the vanilla flavor out if you didn't know it was there.

It really is! Sensory training is a really interesting thing. Off flavors sensory was really really interesting, not super fun, but interesting. Some people have incredible pallets and can detect super small amounts of off flavors and some people just cant. I fall into the less awesome pallet crowd, personally.

Building recipes with layering flavors whether cooking or brewing is really interesting and fun!

 

[Craigerrr]

With regards to Crystal in an IPA, I think it is safe to say that the lower you go with gravity, the more difficult it is to balance it.
There is probably a point where it just wouldn't work for any palette.
I make my West Cost IPA around 6% (1.060 OG), with bitterness at the top end of the style (70 IBU's), so the 4.4% C60 works for me, I like what it brings.
If I dropped the ABV to say 5%, the Crystal might take over and be out of place even at a lower precentage.

 

[Bigbre04]

With regards to Crystal in an IPA, I think it is safe to say that the lower you go with gravity, the more difficult it is to balance it.
There is probably a point where it just wouldn't work for any palette.
I make my West Cost IPA around 6% (1.060 OG), with bitterness at the top end of the style (70 IBU's), so the 4.4% C60 works for me, I like what it brings.
If I dropped the ABV to say 5%, the Crystal might take over and be out of place even at a lower precentage.

A big west coast needs the malty backbone or it becomes really overpowering in my opinion.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

Some people have incredible pallets and can detect super small amounts of off flavors and some people just cant. I fall into the less awesome pallet crowd, personally.

Me too. It makes brewing a great beer a little tougher. I have to rely on others to find my flaws, other times I detect a flaw that's not there.

 

[Brewer #413999]

Something I've been wondering for a while...
Sometimes a malt addition is only like 2%. Can you actually taste that (like a caramalt) or would that be for colour?

I know everyone is different, but thought it would be interesting to discuss.

Me, I seem to have a low treshold for caramel flavours. I find them overbearing very quickly.
(I am drinking Q4 now, and there must be a time thing here as well, as suddenly I find it very caramelly, which gives me an excuse to finish it tonight or tomorrow)

But I'm not only talking grains, also hop, other additives, alcohol percentage, mash temperature, hop addition time etc.
I figure I wouldn't be able to taste the difference between a 4.6 and 4.7 percent beer. Probably only between 4 and 6 percent.

So overall query I got with lots of recipes:
But can you taste it...

Yep, I'm rambling a bit but I hope you get my point
Ps: Who knew surviving my daily tasks could be so hilarious (and challenging)? House of Hazards is a perfect party game - chaotic fun for everyone, even if you're not a gamer.

The surrounding flavors in the beer play a huge role. A clean pilsner with 2% caramalt would likely showcase its caramel notes more prominently than a robust imperial stout with the same addition.