Sparging/Recirculating

[RoadRoach]

For the sake of discussion, I'd like to get a few opinions about switching to BIAB versus loose grist mashing. First, some details:

Currently, I do not have a separate mash tun, and really don't want another piece of equipment to add to brew-day cleanup. So, I mash in my kettle, drain to a fermenting bucket for holding while sparging, and then take the kettle out to the compost heap to dump the spent grains before I boil. Obviously, there's a bit of trouble doing this because I MUST put the torpedo screen on the bottom port of the kettle. I forgot it ONCE. I won't again. All of my sparging/recirculation up to now has been by ladling the wort back on top of the grain for another pass, or sparge water, same thing. I'm all but positive my efficiency is poor because I rarely hit predicted OG targets. I get within a few points, but that's about it.

As of today (hopefully), I will add a pump, and hoses, to handle the hot wort and sparging. I still need to make a spray head or buy one for sparging, but for now, I'm considering double batch sparging as my go-to technique, and recirculating 1st, 2nd, and 3rd runnings until clear before I drain to a fermenting bucket for holding, until I get to boil volume.

I also know that in the future, since I'm switching to BIAB methods, I'm going to need the grain ground a bit finer. That's probably not an issue either.

First question:
Is batch sparging any less efficient than normal methods of spraying the grain bed? Why? Is your answer opinion, or do you have data to back it up? That isn't a challenge, I'd just like to see some numbers. It's my inner engineer speaking.

Second:
Should I run flaked grain adjuncts through the mill as well to help prevent stuck mashes in a bag? Rice husks are my friend, I already know, but I've yet to use them. Any other technique to keep the grist loose?

Third:
If I start using BIAB techniques, can I expect my losses to increase or not? Will my efficiency increase (I'm really expecting one) help offset the losses?

 

[Dornbox]

You like labor! Lol. Then again I have a full nano brewery and my days are super long once I add in all the cleanup and flushing etc.

For clarity, I have never done BIAB but I've batch sparged a little and have fly sparged since forever. But besides sleeping in a Holiday Inn Express last night, I also have been looking into getting a BIAB setup though just for winter brewing.

1- Yes, Fly sparging is the most efficient and that's why all commercial breweries do it. Other than efficiency, I do not believe there is another reason. I can hit 80% plus without trying. In fact I tried to lower my efficiency down to 75% the other day as I wanted to experiment to see if I over sparge. My preboil efficiency was nearly at my O.G. Anything under 78-80% is difficult for me to hit without changing my mill settings to something horrible or batch sparging. Granted I also overnight mash wich gives me a few points over what I'd get with a 1 hour mash.

2- A lot of people run flaked adjuncts etc through the mill. It wont hurt but it doesn't help as far as I know. I typically build my beer in a bucket and then mill it.

3- For you I'm guessing you will gain efficiency unless you're over 75%. Then maybe not. That's just from understanding batch sparging though as I have not BIAB before but that's essentially what you're doing with a BIAB setup.

 

[Minbari]

For the sake of discussion, I'd like to get a few opinions about switching to BIAB versus loose grist mashing. First, some details:

Currently, I do not have a separate mash tun, and really don't want another piece of equipment to add to brew-day cleanup. So, I mash in my kettle, drain to a fermenting bucket for holding while sparging, and then take the kettle out to the compost heap to dump the spent grains before I boil. Obviously, there's a bit of trouble doing this because I MUST put the torpedo screen on the bottom port of the kettle. I forgot it ONCE. I won't again. All of my sparging/recirculation up to now has been by ladling the wort back on top of the grain for another pass, or sparge water, same thing. I'm all but positive my efficiency is poor because I rarely hit predicted OG targets. I get within a few points, but that's about it.

As of today (hopefully), I will add a pump, and hoses, to handle the hot wort and sparging. I still need to make a spray head or buy one for sparging, but for now, I'm considering double batch sparging as my go-to technique, and recirculating 1st, 2nd, and 3rd runnings until clear before I drain to a fermenting bucket for holding, until I get to boil volume.

I have always BIAB with fly sparge (continuous) with a HERM system. keeping the mash at a constant temp is super easy sonce the mash is never allowed to sit and cool. keeping the grain washed all the time. one piece of advice, get a BIAB basket that is 1" less diameter than your kettle. allows the liquid to drain much more efficiently. beleive it or not, but a brew bag that fit tightly on the kettle, sitting on the false bottom will allow your pump to drain out the under the false bottom. this will cause your pump to lose prime and if you are using direct heat, scortch your wort.

I also know that in the future, since I'm switching to BIAB methods, I'm going to need the grain ground a bit finer. That's probably not an issue either.

First question:
Is batch sparging any less efficient than normal methods of spraying the grain bed? Why? Is your answer opinion, or do you have data to back it up? That isn't a challenge, I'd just like to see some numbers. It's my inner engineer speaking.

since I have never done anything but fly sparge, dont know. I ussualy get 70-75% based on what brew father tells me.

Second:
Should I run flaked grain adjuncts through the mill as well to help prevent stuck mashes in a bag? Rice husks are my friend, I already know, but I've yet to use them. Any other technique to keep the grist loose?

you can, doesnt really do anything. I just throw mine in with the rice hulls.

Third:
If I start using BIAB techniques, can I expect my losses to increase or not? Will my efficiency increase (I'm really expecting one) help offset the losses?

only losses that might increase is when you are done mashing. the soaked grain can be a PITA to drain. I use a pulley to pull it out and then a cider press to squish out all the sugary goodness.

 

[RoadRoach]

Thanks for the warning about an inner basket. Come to think of it, the temperature gauge really isn't gonna like that bag either, especially once the grains get wet and swell up. I can already see a torn bag in my future unless I do get a basket. Never mind the false bottom as well. On a positive note, typically, if I'm gonna be pumping the wort, I shouldn't need a lot of heat on time once I'm up to mashing temp. Just a bump once in a while after I get it hot is what I normally do. But I'm thinking an electric hotplate under the kettle for mashing might be a smarter idea, turned down low, and using the ITC-1000F to keep the temperature a bit tighter. Inside shot of the kettle shows how much the temp gauge extends into the tank. That torpedo screen is very fond of ripping muslin bags (hops additions before I got the basket) to shreds.

Maybe this time I handle the grain the same way I've been doing it (except for the added recirculation ability) and just fly sparge first runnings and second runnings for volume, and call it a win. it's ground for loose grist anyway. Anything will be better than my dipping method for sparging, I'm sure. I have NO CLUE what my efficiency was on any batch before now, but I'm sure it wasn't very good. It's next to impossible to clear up a batch using the grain as a filter if you can't regulate the flow with at least a little bit of precision. Just hope i don't plug up the fly sparge ring with particulate that will go through the torpedo screen. Pity I don't have a way to test that till it's too late. It's drilled with 0.0625 (1/16th) holes which SHOULD pass most of the solids, assuming nothing packs in. If it does, then I'm gonna have fun cleaning that out. Worst case, I bump the hole size to .125. The good news is it's hot side, so not likely to be a sanitation issue. Got a bit of work in the fly sparge ring, but I don't have any issue doing it differently if I have to. Gotta do something to occupy myself and stay outta the missus' hairdo. This is the second major change in my process since I started brewing. The first was getting some temperature control on the fermentation. I'm liking the changes, even in beers I thought would be too bitter for me. I'm getting a completely different taste from the malts and yeasts and hops with better control on my processes. Learning is a good thing.

 

[Minbari]

my kettle is just like that and yes, that temp probe sticking out is a pain. I never ripped my bag, but you did have to pull it out carefully and kinda wiggle it past it. after getting the screen basket, that problem went away. ya, you wont need a false bottom, most of the baskets have legs.
also, you wont need that screen once you get a bag.

this is where I got my BIAB bags. this guy does really good work. had mine for like 6 years. still going strong with only a few minor snags in em.

https://biabbags.webs.com/

 

[RoadRoach]

my kettle is just like that and yes, that temp probe sticking out is a pain. I never ripped my bag, but you did have to pull it out carefully and kinda wiggle it past it. after getting the screen basket, that problem went away. ya, you wont need a false bottom, most of the baskets have legs.
also, you wont need that screen once you get a bag.

this is where I got my BIAB bags. this guy does really good work. had mine for like 6 years. still going strong with only a few minor snags in em.

https://biabbags.webs.com/

Already have bags, but probably not quite as well fit as yours. More importantly, where did you source your grain basket? Mine is the Brewer’s Best 8 gallon kettle and so far I haven’t found a basket for it. To miss the temp gauge, the basket can’t be much larger than 9 inches diameter, 10 max. Gonna make for a pretty tall grain column.

 

[Minbari]

Already have bags, but probably not quite as well fit as yours. More importantly, where did you source your grain basket? Mine is the Brewer’s Best 8 gallon kettle and so far I haven’t found a basket for it. To miss the temp gauge, the basket can’t be much larger than 9 inches diameter, 10 max. Gonna make for a pretty tall grain column.

I made it. Aluminum bar for the frame and then covered in stainless mesh. Even made a Flat on one side to accommodate the probe

this company will make it to whatever specs you want
https://www.arborfab.com/Customizations_ep_42-1.html

 

[RoadRoach]

I made it. Aluminum bar for the frame and then covered in stainless mesh. Even made a Flat on one side to accommodate the probe

this company will make it to whatever specs you want
https://www.arborfab.com/Customizations_ep_42-1.html

View attachment 22554

Ok. I made some minnow traps when I was a kid with some stainless mesh. Not the easiest stuff to work with, but I guess I’ll see what I can find. I was somewhat willing to pay a little premium for one, but if it ain’t out there, I guess I’ll be making one. For now, I’ll just use a slightly improved process for sparging and just handle the grain the same way I’ve been doing. Last thing I want to do is melt a bag to the bottom of my kettle.

 

[Zambi]

I'm all but positive my efficiency is poor because I rarely hit predicted OG targets. I get within a few points, but that's about it.

Just change your efficiency down a little. These values are predictions and not absolutes. You just need to change the variables to suit the results

Can't help much with the other queries as I am on the simplest of biab systems

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

First question:
Is batch sparging any less efficient than normal methods of spraying the grain bed? Why? Is your answer opinion, or do you have data to back it up? That isn't a challenge, I'd just like to see some numbers. It's my inner engineer speaking.

Batch sparge can be just as efficient as fly sparging. It's a matter of preference and equipment. Fly sparge is done on a pro level because most systems default to it on equipment design, it's an easy design and works well. Batch sparging can be done a number of ways. I use a hybrid system. I drain the bed until the grain is nearly exposed and than I add water with my return for the mash recirculation. I add a set amount of water slowly until it completely covers the grain, sometimes it's 4-5 inches above the grain bed. I use this method to avoid exposing the grain to the air/oxygen. I routinely get +90% efficiency, the key is to drain the bed slowly. I don't use BIAB, I just use the false bottom on the tun. I could use a BIAB mesh in my tun, but it doesn't seem necessary. A combo false bottom and BIAB are used by some home brewers and I've heard it works really well.

Second:
Should I run flaked grain adjuncts through the mill as well to help prevent stuck mashes in a bag? Rice husks are my friend, I already know, but I've yet to use them. Any other technique to keep the grist loose?

No. Just mill your grain, there is no need to mill flaked adjuncts and it may make things worse by creating some flour. Rice hulls work well, but so does beta glucanase. It's an enzyme you can add to the mash that help break down glucan in the mash. Adjuncts can bring some additional glucan to the mash and cause a stuck mash/sparge. Glucan was often called "gum" by the old timers. It really can cause a lot of problems with flow. You can get the enzyme it here:

https://www.morebeer.com/products/cellarscience-glucabuster-placeholder.html

Be careful not to use too much. A 1/4 tsp is all you need per 10-15 pounds of grain.
BTW, my favorite adjunct is Minute Rice. I don't mill it or cook it. Just add it to the mash.
.

Third:
If I start using BIAB techniques, can I expect my losses to increase or not? Will my efficiency increase (I'm really expecting one) help offset the losses?

You efficiency is a reflection of all your mashing conditions. Everything from recirculation to pH to grain depth, etc. can impact efficiency. If your making changes to your system, make them one at a time if possible to see how it effects your brewing. Don't get too hung up on getting the most out of your mash, as you improve your brewing techniques you will likely see the higher efficiency from the mash.

 

[RoadRoach]

Batch sparge can be just as efficient as fly sparging. It's a matter of preference and equipment. Fly sparge is done on a pro level because most systems default to it on equipment design, it's an easy design and works well. Batch sparging can be done a number of ways. I use a hybrid system. I drain the bed until the grain is nearly exposed and than I add water with my return for the mash recirculation. I add a set amount of water slowly until it completely covers the grain, sometimes it's 4-5 inches above the grain bed. I use this method to avoid exposing the grain to the air/oxygen. I routinely get +90% efficiency, the key is to drain the bed slowly. I don't use BIAB, I just use the false bottom on the tun. I could use a BIAB mesh in my tun, but it doesn't seem necessary. A combo false bottom and BIAB are used by some home brewers and I've heard it works really well.

No. Just mill your grain, there is no need to mill flaked adjuncts and it may make things worse by creating some flour. Rice hulls work well, but so does beta glucanase. It's an enzyme you can add to the mash that help break down glucan in the mash. Adjuncts can bring some additional glucan to the mash and cause a stuck mash/sparge. Glucan was often called "gum" by the old timers. It really can cause a lot of problems with flow. You can get the enzyme it here:

https://www.morebeer.com/products/cellarscience-glucabuster-placeholder.html

Be careful not to use too much. A 1/4 tsp is all you need per 10-15 pounds of grain.
BTW, my favorite adjunct is Minute Rice. I don't mill it or cook it. Just add it to the mash.
.

You efficiency is a reflection of all your mashing conditions. Everything from recirculation to pH to grain depth, etc. can impact efficiency. If your making changes to your system, make them one at a time if possible to see how it effects your brewing. Don't get too hung up on getting the most out of your mash, as you improve your brewing techniques you will likely see the higher efficiency from the mash.

Thanks for the info. One thing at a time is exactly what I’m doing, simply because I’m spreading the equipment investments over time. One can spend a lot of money on this hobby/craft.
I jumped a little too quickly getting a burner that will heat/boil very quickly. This was before I understood the value and importance of temperature control during mash/sparge. But some of that also seems subjective, so I do the best I can with the best I have until I feel like I need to upgrade. The pump is the first step adding better recirculating to the mash stage and hot wort handling (beyond a kettle with a valve). The freezer is the first major change to the fermentation stage, and I’m fishing for more ideas to better utilize the most expensive thing I’ve purchased. I already like the results from temperature control on fermentation after only 2 batches. Now I can learn more advanced fermentation techniques and expand my skills on more styles that I couldn’t otherwise do.
I got in a hurry with the pump and bags were inexpensive, so I considered two major technical changes. This goes against 40 years of industrial engineering service experience, so I’ll try some sparging techniques before I go to BIAB, along with some fermentation control, and try to identify any changes, positive or negative. Then move on to the next improvement in my processes.