Software Help -- Water

[Mike at Bay]

Let me first say, I am taking the forums advice and not getting overly wrapped up in my water vs making string my brewing process, yeast and sanitation are my primary focus as I start BIAB grain brewing again.

That said, I had my water tested by Ward and loaded that profile into the software. My first recipe (Sierra Nevada Clone) suggested water additions of Lactic Acid, Gypsum and Calcium Chloride. I thought my next recipe ( Sample Blond Ale) would have given me similar water adjustments.....I did not. Just yeast nutrient and whir floc.

Seems I misunderstood that the software was doing. Is the software giving me water additions based on the recipe the "brewer" created or based on my water profile, or both? Water profile below.....I have no chemistry background.

 

[Sunfire96]

It's aiming for a target water profile set by the brewer when making the recipe. If you are creating the recipe you can choose your own target water profile. You can select a style or enter custom figures. Choosing by beer style is a good place to start

 

[Sunfire96]

Also they get kind of mad when we discuss Brewfather software on here, just a heads up

 

[Mike at Bay]

It's aiming for a target water profile set by the brewer when making the recipe. If you are creating the recipe you can choose your own target water profile. You can select a style or enter custom figures. Choosing by beer style is a good place to start

Got it. Thanks.

 

[Craigerrr]

Whatever recipe you brew from whichever app database, you will need to update it to your equipment profile, and your beginning and desired water profile. I use Brewfather as well, but I am here on this forum for the great community that have here.

 

[Donoroto]

Let me first say, I am taking the forums advice and not getting overly wrapped up in my water vs making string my brewing process, yeast and sanitation are my primary focus as I start BIAB grain brewing again.

That said, I had my water tested by Ward and loaded that profile into the software. My first recipe (Sierra Nevada Clone) suggested water additions of Lactic Acid, Gypsum and Calcium Chloride. I thought my next recipe ( Sample Blond Ale) would have given me similar water adjustments.....I did not. Just yeast nutrient and whir floc.

Seems I misunderstood that the software was doing. Is the software giving me water additions based on the recipe the "brewer" created or based on my water profile, or both? Water profile below.....I have no chemistry background.

View attachment 33938

That is fairly neutral water, almost no minerals.

Is that coming from a water softener? It has a lot of sodium.

The mash benefits from at least a little calcium, and yours shows almost none, so a 1/2 tsp of calcium sulfate would offer some mild benefit. (Why CaSO4 and not CaCl? You have some chloride already, but almost no sulphate. Having both chloride and sulphate is also beneficial).

Of course, doing nothing won’t hurt really.

 

[Mike at Bay]

That is fairly neutral water, almost no minerals.

Is that coming from a water softener? It has a lot of sodium.

The mash benefits from at least a little calcium, and yours shows almost none, so a 1/2 tsp of calcium sulfate would offer some mild benefit. (Why CaSO4 and not CaCl? You have some chloride already, but almost no sulphate. Having both chloride and sulphate is also beneficial).

Of course, doing nothing won’t hurt really.

It is coming out of a water softener.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

The sodium level is problematic, especially when making a hoppy beer. It causes the malt to be emphasized over the hop bitterness. Using water from a softener for brewing is usually not recommended

You’re going to get a lot of advice about water that is all over the place. You’re right to worry about other things first.

The alkalinity is the elephant in the room. Alkalinity drives up the pH in the mash and in the finished beer, that can make for flabby beer and the bitterness gets sharper as the pH goes up in the finished beer. Finish pH in a pale ale should be @4.3-4.4.

Your water is very similar to mine and the only beers it works with are stouts. You can dilute your water with RO or distilled water to make amber beers or do what I do, use RO water. I add some hardness (not to be confused with alkalinity) in the form of calcium sulfate and calcium chloride. The calcium helps with yeast health and flocculation.

Good luck, water not as hard (no pun intended) as some people make. RO water goes a long way to get you on the right track.

 

[Mike at Bay]

The sodium level is problematic, especially when making a hoppy beer. It causes the malt to be emphasized over the hop bitterness. Using water from a softener for brewing is usually not recommended

You’re going to get a lot of advice about water that is all over the place. You’re right to worry about other things first.

The alkalinity is the elephant in the room. Alkalinity drives up the pH in the mash and in the finished beer, that can make for flabby beer and the bitterness gets sharper as the pH goes up in the finished beer. Finish pH in a pale ale should be @4.3-4.4.

Your water is very similar to mine and the only beers it works with are stouts. You can dilute your water with RO or distilled water to make amber beers or do what I do, use RO water. I add some hardness (not to be confused with alkalinity) in the form of calcium sulfate and calcium chloride. The calcium helps with yeast health and flocculation.

Good luck, water not as hard (no pun intended) as some people make. RO water goes a long way to get you on the right track.

Thanks. I have a source on the other side of the softener but I would need to have it tested by Ward....no way to guess at its levels other than to say it does leave white spots on our cars. . I live in an area where the water is not managed by a big municipality....small company on the island but I do have their report some where.

In the short term I could get distilled water and get the additive measurements from the software.

Again, not a chemist...I assume there is nothing I can do about the alkalinity short of RO?

I am brewing a Blonde Ale on Tuesday...not overly hoppy.

 

[Donoroto]

Thanks. I have a source on the other side of the softener but I would need to have it tested by Ward....no way to guess at its levels other than to say it does leave white spots on our cars. . I live in an area where the water is not managed by a big municipality....small company on the island but I do have their report some where.

In the short term I could get distilled water and get the additive measurements from the software.

Again, not a chemist...I assume there is nothing I can do about the alkalinity short of RO?

I am brewing a Blonde Ale on Tuesday...not overly hoppy.

I feel the water prior to softener treatment will be better for brewing than the water after. While the untreated water has its drawbacks (white spots, etc.) those minerals are likely good for your beer. At worst they are not harmful. I’d say fancy water isn’t needed at the moment.

Your bigger issue is the lack of calcium, followed by high sodium.

Alkalinity is easy: add acid. Phosphoric, lactic, or a dash of acidulated malt. Trust the recipe tool you use to predict mash pH and go with it. Some recipes won’t need acid, depends on the style and specific ingredients.

 

[Mike at Bay]

I feel the water prior to softener treatment will be better for brewing than the water after. While the untreated water has its drawbacks (white spots, etc.) those minerals are likely good for your beer. At worst they are not harmful. I’d say fancy water isn’t needed at the moment.

Your bigger issue is the lack of calcium, followed by high sodium.

Alkalinity is easy: add acid. Phosphoric, lactic, or a dash of acidulated malt. Trust the recipe tool you use to predict mash pH and go with it. Some recipes won’t need acid, depends on the style and specific ingredients.

Thanks!!!

 

[Craigerrr]

Oh ya, definitely do not brew with softened water

 

[Mike at Bay]

Overall Water Report:

Ca+2 Mg+2 Na+ Cl- SO4-2 Alkalinity Residual Alkalinity mg/l mg/l mg/l mg/l mg/l ppm as CaCO3 ppm as CaCO3 55.3 39.0 15.0 32.0 3.0 264.0 201.7 normal high normal normal low Range Check

SO42-/Cl- ratio: ClSO42 concentration too low for meaningful ratio

Above is my updated water report from Ward that is before the water goes through our softener. This is based on a light/hoppy brew style in the software. I assume this is an indication that for this brew my water is acceptable. Additions will require more familiarity with the calculator as it is quite detailed.

 

[Craigerrr]

CA+2 - is okay, would be good to try and get this into the 80 to 90 range
Mg+2 - magnesium can have a laxative effect, I'm not sure if this is high enough for that, others may have thoughts
Na+ - perfect

Cl- (chlorides) and SO4-2 (sulfates), this is where you can enhance either malt or hops in a beer
Following is a "balanced" profile, which would be perfect for your Blonde.

For your Sierra Nevada you might want to have a ratio of 2:1 sulfates to chlorides.
You will also likely need a bit of acid in either a balanced profile or this 2:1 profile to bring mash pH down.

You might want the opposite of this for say a Porter or a Stout, 1:2 ratio
You will also need some baking soda to bring the mash pH up in a dark beer.

It is a trial and error with what you need to add to get the profile and predict mash pH, but you don't have to be a scientist...

 

[Mike at Bay]

CA+2 - is okay, would be good to try and get this into the 80 to 90 range
Mg+2 - magnesium can have a laxative effect, I'm not sure if this is high enough for that, others may have thoughts
Na+ - perfect

Cl- (chlorides) and SO4-2 (sulfates), this is where you can enhance either malt or hops in a beer
Following is a "balanced" profile, which would be perfect for your Blonde.

For your Sierra Nevada you might want to have a ratio of 2:1 sulfates to chlorides.
You will also likely need a bit of acid in either a balanced profile or this 2:1 profile to bring mash pH down.

You might want the opposite of this for say a Porter or a Stout, 1:2 ratio
You will also need some baking soda to bring the mash pH up in a dark beer.

It is a trial and error with what you need to add to get the profile and predict mash pH, but you don't have to be a scientist...

View attachment 33997

Thanks!! If I am using the software properly it appears I can pick a style from the drop down or as you suggest just kind of know what you need. Then keep plugging in the additives to get to the desired water result. The software will not just tell me what amount of what additives I need if I understand correctly.

 

[Dave Y]

Thanks!! If I am using the software properly it appears I can pick a style from the drop down or as you suggest just kind of know what you need. Then keep plugging in the additives to get to the desired water result. The software will not just tell me what amount of what additives I need if I understand correctly.

it will

first, get your values here; set your source water and if you know your target, select that too.

SAVE the recipe then click "Link"

A new window or tab opens;

update the values, water volume, etc. My source water pH is always 5.25; it's actually 7, so I'll change that.

further down, we get to this section:

I've had a change of heart and instead of London Porter, I'll go with light and hoppy. You can see that from my source, I am low on Ca, Na, CL & S04
Now, we try to get as close to zero as we can by plugging in values to the chemicals

Now, after about 5 minutes of adjusting numbers, we get:

I literally did this for my CDA to be brewed tomorrow just now. once you get the hang of it, the process isn't that bad.

acid is further down and works similarly.

 

[Donoroto]

Thanks!! If I am using the software properly it appears I can pick a style from the drop down or as you suggest just kind of know what you need. Then keep plugging in the additives to get to the desired water result. The software will not just tell me what amount of what additives I need if I understand correctly.

Correct-ish. It will tell you what the numbers You entered will do, but it will not puck numbers for you.

Your water is ok, but a bit more sulphate would really be noticeable in a good way. CaSO4 is gypsum, MgSO4 is epsom salt, both are widely used in brewing. Gypsum is reasonably soluble, but at higher temperatures it can precipitate out (retrograde solubility), but not a concern less than around a gram per liter. Your magnesium level is fine, it can have laxative effects at around ten times that number.

Your sodium looks great now.

Using the water calculator, see what 2 grams of gypsum will due to those numbers. I bet you’ll be happy.

 

[Mike at Bay]

Correct-ish. It will tell you what the numbers You entered will do, but it will not puck numbers for you.

Your water is ok, but a bit more sulphate would really be noticeable in a good way. CaSO4 is gypsum, MgSO4 is epsom salt, both are widely used in brewing. Gypsum is reasonably soluble, but at higher temperatures it can precipitate out (retrograde solubility), but not a concern less than around a gram per liter. Your magnesium level is fine, it can have laxative effects at around ten times that number.

Your sodium looks great now.

Using the water calculator, see what 2 grams of gypsum will due to those numbers. I bet you’ll be happy.

Thanks! That is what I was thinking regarding the software. Would you typically brew to a style of water as the software allows (e.g. work towards "0" delta for or would you simply make additions to get to a consistent balanced source water?

 

[Donoroto]

Thanks! That is what I was thinking regarding the software. Would you typically brew to a style of water as the software allows (e.g. work towards "0" delta for or would you simply make additions to get to a consistent balanced source water?

When I build a recipe, I take into account the style beer, and particularly adjust the chloride-sulphate ratio. This affects the taste, emphasizing bitterness or maltiness. Then I make sure I have enough calcium, not too much sodium or (to a lesser extent) magnesium, and finally check the predicted mash pH.

If I get within a single-digit delta of what it calls for, that’s plenty close. I don’t obsess over it.

I ignore residual alkalinity and HCO3.

 

[Craigerrr]

When I build a recipe, I take into account the style beer, and particularly adjust the chloride-sulphate ratio. This affects the taste, emphasizing bitterness or maltiness. Then I make sure I have enough calcium, not too much sodium or (to a lesser extent) magnesium, and finally check the predicted mash pH.

If I get within a single-digit delta of what it calls for, that’s plenty close. I don’t obsess over it.

I ignore residual alkalinity and HCO3.

Yep!
No need to over science it!
As you "brew, learn, repeat" take what you learn and apply it as you go.
Brewing beer is basically cooking, no one becomes a Chef overnight.
In time you will no doubt learn to take your Kraft Mac N Cheese home brew to a Michelin Star level Pasta Primavera craft beer sensation.
There is much to learn Grasshopper