Low oxygenation, high diacetil

[Daniel Parshley]

Whenever I have used US-05 I have left it for a full 2 weeks at 18C before packaging.

What was the OG of this beer?

Reason I ask is that there is no need to oxygenate your wort if it is 1063 or under.
The rep from Fermentis actually told me 1060 or under, but I have used it in 1063 wort many times with no issues.
It seems that your impatience is continuing to give you poor results.
I think that this is the real root cause here.
Fermenting at 20C should be fine, but this needs time.

Same here for US-05. Eight days until the cap collapses and then another 10 days. A taste test on day 14 usually indicates it is done but I give it a few more, and then another 2 weeks in the bottle at room temp.

 

[Mastoras007]

Yes, the sensory kits are very helpful.
Since you don’t know what the perceived off flavor is these kids will help you understand all off flavors in a beer

I think i will go for it

 

[Mastoras007]

So after all that conversation, i think we can all agree i was in rush.
I will prepare my next batch, will be very strict and give it more time, but not more than 2 weeks

 

[Craigerrr]

So after all that conversation, i think we can all agree i was in rush.
I will prepare my next batch, will be very strict and give it more time, but not more than 2 weeks

Why not more than 2 weeks?

 

[Craigerrr]

Do yourself a favor, don't keep checking and sampling it. Let the yeast do it's work, check it after two full weeks and package.

 

[Sandy Feet]

Give it two weeks in the fermenter, give it time to carb. Taste it then. After that, taste it at weekly intervals to see how it improves. You can drop down about two or three days in the fermenter when you know what you are doing and you can allow it extra time to lager. Shitty patience=shitty beer.
Big Bre and I tease each other all the time and give each other shit about this in jest, but at least he allows the beer to lager for a little bit.

 

[Mastoras007]

Give it two weeks in the fermenter, give it time to carb. Taste it then. After that, taste it at weekly intervals to see how it improves. You can drop down about two or three days in the fermenter when you know what you are doing and you can allow it extra time to lager. Shitty patience=shitty beer.
Big Bre and I tease each other all the time and give each other shit about this in jest, but at least he allows the beer to lager for a little bit.

Big bre is my inspiration here, LoL
He makes lager grain to glass 10 days, ales makes less
I'm not brewing for drinking I'm brewing for practice, i have already started building a brewery, can't wait 4 weeks, after all i think 14-15 days is enough if the temperature is good controlled and yeast healthy, and of course overpitched
Anyway i believe in stainless steel equipment, professional thanks pumps, coolers,cip ,etc will be easier,
but don't know yet for sure
Waiting few months more let's see what will happen
Untill then just experimenting

 

[Sandy Feet]

Before you can short cut, you have to figure out how to do it right first. You could go 14-15 days, or even less IF you know what you are doing, and you can let it lager in a keg behind something that is already on draft. That is what Big Bre does with normal yeast. If you can't do that, the other option is Kveik, which I am not a fan of. Others on here like it. I don't. The beers that I have tasted made with that yeast lack something. It would probably work for something like a Pale Ale or something very simple, but anything that needs a complex yeast character, no.
If you expect to put it on tap in a short period, you have shitty beer, but again, you can brew enough to be able to lager it and sit it behind something that is already selling.
Years ago, or shit, decades ago now, there used to be a bar across from Universal Studios in Orlando that made THE most horrible beer ever. I still joke about that place to this day. Don't be that bar.

 

[Mastoras007]

Before you can short cut, you have to figure out how to do it right first. You could go 14-15 days, or even less IF you know what you are doing, and you can let it lager in a keg behind something that is already on draft. That is what Big Bre does with normal yeast. If you can't do that, the other option is Kveik, which I am not a fan of. Others on here like it. I don't. The beers that I have tasted made with that yeast lack something. It would probably work for something like a Pale Ale or something very simple, but anything that needs a complex yeast character, no.

I know how to do it, but I'm testing things, different temperatures, different pitch rate, differend mash thickness, and more
But at the end, feeling like super noob, something new will appear.. and here we go again..

 

[Dave Y]

I know how to do it, but I'm testing things, different temperatures, different pitch rate, differend mash thickness, and more
But at the end, feeling like super noob, something new will appear.. and here we go again..

Listen to what @Sandy Feet is typing to you. If you rush beers to tap, you’re not giving them time to mature and instead of being great beers, they will be average beers that people can buy in the store.

Once you put a bad beer on tap and people talk about it, you will have the devil of a time undoing that mistake. Word of mouth goes a long way in this particular pursuit. You say that @Bigbre04 is your inspiration, but you’ll notice that he also puts things out here to solicit input - AND, he reacts to it. This is super important; a self awareness that he possesses that he is not the exclusive arbiter of what is good beer. He probably very well is the exclusive arbiter of his customer base, but he is turning around beer relatively quickly on a system he’s familiar with, with recipes he knows he can turn around quickly but he is also letting beers mature before they make it to the taps.

I’ve been brewing almost 30 years; since the late 20th century. I currently have 9 beers on tap, and can temporary tap a 10th if needed. I’ve never had a diacetyl afflicted beer and I’ve made some pretty glorious screw ups! And absolutely none of that makes me a better brewer than you - or anyone else here. It just means I’ve been doing it a while. But you can read here and tell who has the experience and know how to give you solid feedback. Many have done so and I would advise heeding that counsel.

Testing things is good, logging your results is good and using the data you gather in the end to get a better result - that’s why we’re here.
As a an instructor once told me: “You can’t miss fast enough”. The point of his instruction was to slow down, get a good sight picture, squeeze the trigger and ring the steel. Because: Slow hits beat fast misses all the time, every time.

But at the end, feeling like super noob, something new will appear.. and here we go again..

And this is the “money shot”; we are all still learning.

 

[Donoroto]

After a quick search I found some, of flavour kit samples
Anyone used them?
Worth it to buy??

Yes. We can write about flavors here, but actually (and safely) tasting them cannot be replaced. Also if you know someone with good taste and smell sense, have them join you, so you have a ‘second head’ when you're not quite sure.

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

Big bre is my inspiration here, LoL
He makes lager grain to glass 10 days, ales makes less
I'm not brewing for drinking I'm brewing for practice, i have already started building a brewery, can't wait 4 weeks, after all i think 14-15 days is enough if the temperature is good controlled and yeast healthy, and of course overpitched
Anyway i believe in stainless steel equipment, professional thanks pumps, coolers,cip ,etc will be easier,
but don't know yet for sure
Waiting few months more let's see what will happen
Untill then just experimenting

Is this a personal brewery or commercial? Either way, you have to learn to do it the right way before you can understand where you can change the process.

If this is a potential business, I *HIGHLY* suggest you get a firm grip, grasp, and understanding of the brewing process and *especially* off-flavors and what causes them before you brew your first batch for public consumption. Otherwise, you'll quickly lose your entire investment.

I can turn a beer, for private consumption or at a festival full of drunkards, in about 3–4 days. It took me 6 years of brewing to learn how to do so, and still produce a decent beverage. (some turned out quite good and won awards) I would never recommend that anyone attempt to do so before they learned the basics first, and had at least 20+ traditional batches under their belt. (I was well over 100 by the time I tried this) That short time frame also didn't happen in one go. It was a slow process of shaving time here and there *as I learned*. And I don't do that except in rare cases. When I care about making a really good beer, I do NOT rush the process.

Fancier and more expensive equipment can assist with speed, and certainly with cleanliness, but those use cases are limited, especially if you don't already know what you are doing. Simple equipment is better for learning with less complications and parts. Shortcuts you do not understand, won't produce good beer.

The sensory kits are highly recommended, as is lots of research and reading, as is lots of drinking and tasting and practicing trying to describe what you are smelling and tasting in specific terms. (for example, 'tropical' is not specific, but 'unripe pineapple' is.) As your sensory perceptions and descriptions improve, you will be able to identify things that need to be addressed (or don't) and then you can target your research in articles and in forum questions. Don't stop asking, don't stop reading, keep learning. There is no 'end' where you know how to brew and then you brew. It doesn't work that way.

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

Big bre is my inspiration here, LoL
He makes lager grain to glass 10 days, ales makes less
I'm not brewing for drinking I'm brewing for practice, i have already started building a brewery, can't wait 4 weeks, after all i think 14-15 days is enough if the temperature is good controlled and yeast healthy, and of course overpitched
Anyway i believe in stainless steel equipment, professional thanks pumps, coolers,cip ,etc will be easier,
but don't know yet for sure
Waiting few months more let's see what will happen
Untill then just experimenting

I think your expectation of a batch taking a certain amount of time is misplaced. The beer is ready, when it is ready. You're dealing with an agricultural product and live organisms that you can not absolutely control. As a brewer, you 'cook' a batch of food for these organisms in such a way that they'll want to consume it at a rate and in a fashion where the end result is enjoyable for people to consume further. You have to keep them (the yeast) happy while they are consuming their food you made for them. And you have to make sure they don't have any competition with other organisms that might also like that food, resulting in undesirable end products.

I have a friend who's a local brewmaster. He's got all the fancy equipment. He's been brewing commercially for over 10 years. He keeps about 20 taps flowing at all times. It takes 2 weeks for some 'light' brews to go from the grain to glass. Others take longer. Some he intentionally ages for months.

As noted, homebrewers have the logistical luxury of shortcutting and getting a faster turnaround time, as well as not having to please crowds if they don't want to. Macro breweries can too, because they can afford *very* expensive equipment shortcuts. Anyone in between absolutely has to know their equipment, the process, the ingredients, and the potential pitfalls (off flavors, contamination) very well in order to eek out a measly profit. (not that the Macro's don't know those things, they absolutely do, which is how they afford engineers to optimize their processes and equipment)

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

Truth is I'm not very sure if its diacetil, can't determine what I'm tasting, I assume is diacetil

Did it smell like movie theater buttered popcorn? (for most people it needs to be over a certain threshold to smell it)

Did you detect a 'slickness' on the tongue, almost like there was a bit of cooking oil residue? (more likely to detect, even if you can't smell it)

Did you heat a small sample (perhaps in a plate in a microwave) to enhance the aroma and detect that 'fake butter' smell?

If none of these, then it isn't Diacetyl.

 

[Mastoras007]

Did it smell like movie theater buttered popcorn? (for most people it needs to be over a certain threshold to smell it)

Did you detect a 'slickness' on the tongue, almost like there was a bit of cooking oil residue? (more likely to detect, even if you can't smell it)

Did you heat a small sample (perhaps in a plate in a microwave) to enhance the aroma and detect that 'fake butter' smell?

If none of these, then it isn't Diacetyl.

Hello, sorry for my late answer,
Yes I'm preparing a brewery for commercial use, not serving beer on tap, just selling kegs.
Truth is I'm not sure if was like butter, i think not but same time yes,
Sure is that after few days has faded but not completely,
I can't determine, but i can recognize if I taste it again.

 

[Mastoras007]

I think remembers me the taste of the unlagered Lager,
sulfate, that's the closest taste comes in mind (i just take a sample now, beer still is in the fermentor)

 

[Minbari]

I think remembers me the taste of the unlagered Lager,
sulfate, that's the closest taste comes in mind (i just take a sample now, beer still is in the fermentor)

That's not diacytl, that's most likely hydrogen sulphide

 

[The Brew Mentor]

I don't have a good feeling about how this is going to end up.