Advanced Crazy Sour questions...

[JustBrewIt]

So, not interested in being told it's a crazy idea. That's where I live all the time.
I am slightly familiar with the relationship between pH, TA and perceived sourness and was hoping to make this work to my advantage but have not found any easy answers to my questions.

I hope this isn't too long winded, but understanding why I want to do this sour will probably help, here's my situation. I'm an old fart homebrewer who is part of a local club which is often invited to pour at beerfests alongside commercial brewers. We have been invited to brew for a "90's Throwback Party" themed beerfest where beers will be themed around favorite snacks, drinks, TV shows and anything else kids of the 90's loved. I've brewed a number of good sours over the years and have been very happy with them. However, this event calls for something outrageous. I've decided to brew a "WarHeads" hommage sour beer. (In case you didn't know, WarHeads are a sour hard candy introduced in the 90's that was coated with malic and citric acid powder.) Many kids of the 90's consider them iconic. Warheads produce a ridiculous perceived sourness.

Because of the nature of beerfests people will only be drinking a couple oz of most beers and moving on to try something else. Therefore nobody will be drinking 12 oz of it and I can go for the all out shock and awe of the WarHead experience. My plan is to brew a low pH high alcohol Berliner like beer except with 6 or 7% ABV and a very low final gravity of around 0 Plato. I will introduce some fruit puree or extract to the keg the day before the pour for flavor. I was also planning to dose it with Malic, Citric and Tartaric acid powder in a 1/3 ratio each.

My problem is I have no way of measuring TA and really don't want to buy test equipment for a one off crazy beer that is only for the shock of it. I also have no idea where to start as far as how many grams of acid per gal of beer, 50? 100? and is a 1/3 ratio of each acid a reasonable mix? And is this even likely to raise my TA while lowering my pH?

Any recommendations on this crazy idea? I am open to any ideas from people who understand the pH / TA relationship to perceived sourness.

 

[GFHomebrew]

No idea man but i loved warheads.
Good luck souring is not in my brewing know how sorry but sounds very cool!

 

[The Brew Mentor]

Without a PH meter, for you it'll just be a guessing game and mainly based in your perception.
Are you souring in the Fermentor or kettle souring?
Getting a 7% beer to 0 FG can be difficult.
Citric acid works well, but as you PH gets down, the additions are exponential and you'll see little affect at a certain point.
Also, giving someone a glass or sample of highly acidic anything, could quickly be a bad idea.
I get the idea and would join in, but getting it as tart as possible with a bacteria may be in your best interest. Then a small amount of acid and fruit to make it pop could give you the results you're looking for.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Cheers
Brian

 

[JustBrewIt]

I will be kettle souring. Measuring pH is not an issue, I have equipment for that, however, measuring TA is not something I have equipment or chemicals to do. The cheap kits are not that accurate so I don't plan to get one for a one off beer. If you don't understand the TA reference, and you brew sours, you may want to do some research. TA, (titratable acidity) is not the same as pH however it has a huge impact on perceived sourness. A beer with a higher TA can seem much more sour than a beer that actually has a lower pH. Managing these gives you much better control of your sours. Normally I don't care that much, but, this calls for extreme measures.
Also, below 1.0 FG is not an issue, I often brew bruts that are below 1.0, there are tricks to this too.
The whole point of a homebrew with signage reflecting "WarHeads" at a 90's theme is very clear and I suspect I will get more negative comments due to the lack of sour.

Without a PH meter, for you it'll just be a guessing game and mainly based in your perception.
Are you souring in the Fermentor or kettle souring?
Getting a 7% beer to 0 FG can be difficult.
Citric acid works well, but as you PH gets down, the additions are exponential and you'll see little affect at a certain point.
Also, giving someone a glass or sample of highly acidic anything, could quickly be a bad idea.
I get the idea and would join in, but getting it as tart as possible with a bacteria may be in your best interest. Then a small amount of acid and fruit to make it pop could give you the results you're looking for.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Cheers
Brian

 

[Mark Farrall]

If you're dosing after the fermentation to give it some extra kick, the different acids have different perceived acidity. Can't remember which is more or less, but one may be better than another. I think this is also a proxy for TA. I've listened to people talking through homebrew measurement of TA, but each time I think a taste test will end up being a simpler option.

And of course there's the flavour contribution. You're going to get little to no malic acid from your brew, so adding some of that may give you the taste you're after.

 

[JustBrewIt]

Thanks, I am planning to dose after kegging and just a day before serving. All 3 of those acids are found in beer or wine to some extent. I plan on taking a pint and dosing it and scaling up to the keg. However, I have no idea how much to start adding to the pint. 1 gram each, 2 grams? Or should it be 15??? I just have no idea what is a reasonable adjustment size.

If you're dosing after the fermentation to give it some extra kick, the different acids have different perceived acidity. Can't remember which is more or less, but one may be better than another. I think this is also a proxy for TA. I've listened to people talking through homebrew measurement of TA, but each time I think a taste test will end up being a simpler option.

And of course there's the flavour contribution. You're going to get little to no malic acid from your brew, so adding some of that may give you the taste you're after.

 

[west1m]

Could you just pour a glass of Coors and add a drop or two at a time until you find the flavor? Then you may have an idea where to start on your brew.

 

[Donoroto]

Could you just pour a glass of Coors and add a drop or two at a time until you find the flavor? Then you may have an idea where to start on your brew.

Just what I was going to say: try it small scale, then go bigger. Maybe start with a can of some commercial sour.

 

[naDinMN]

Adding Lactic Acid 88% at kegging is a viable option, and one I've personally used before. Without an acid test kit, you will have to go strictly by flavor. I've added something like 3 or 4 oz of it into five gallons of what was supposed to be a Berliner Weisse, but Philly Sour dropped the ball and didn't get me the TA I wanted. I used a test kit however.

 

[Pricelessbrewing]

I definitely recommend doing a kettle sour and letting it get as sour as possible. Getting down to that kind of sever sourness is going to take a lot of chemicals and will likely taste weird due to the byproducts from manufacturing, lactic acid is often made by pedio and has a distinct off flavor when used extensively.

Make a small batch kettle sour, add acidic fruit like cherries, raspberries, dose to taste with additional citric acid if needed.