Dark grains

Bubbles

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I'm planning to brew an oatmeal stout and read that Gordon Strong recommends keeping the dark grains separate and adding after mashing out or steeping prior to mash. Reasoning is to avoid prolonged heating which increases harshness/astringency. My source water is good but just barely into the "moderate" range of alkalinity and my mash pH would be around 5.4 if I were to mash with the dark grains. If not, mash pH would be considerably higher. The question for me is whether or not risking more harshness/astringency is worth a better mash pH. I'd like a nice, non-cloying sweetness with my oatmeal stout. Would it be advisable to use lactic acid to get a good mash pH (and add the dark grains after mashing) or would that push the wort into the realm of being too acidic? Any opinions?
 
Personally I would add them at the start of the mash. You can mash at slightly higher temps if you want more sweetness in the beer.
 
I'm of the opinion that 5.5-5.6 is a good mash pH, and if you add baking soda whereby to hit a nominal targeted 5.55 mash pH, along with leaving the deep roasted malts/grains in the mash, your deep roast malts will not cause the problem that concerns you.

Oatmeal is not (in my opinion) going to achieve a target goal of non-cloying sweetness. In my opinion oatmeal doesn't do much of anything beneficial, with the sole exception that it raises mash pH, which in the case of an acidic mash would in and of itself be considered beneficial. But I'd rather add some additional baking soda than rely upon oatmeal and fight with the very real potential of a stuck mash. Sweetness would (again in my opinion) require adding some level of Lactose powder. If you consider 1 Lb. of Lactose added to ~5.5 gallons to be cloying, simply add 1/4 to 1/2 of that.

And to avoid an undesired lactic acid like aftertaste stay away from S-04 yeast.
 
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I was at a homebrewers conference where we were given three oatmeal stouts for a triangle test without being told the difference. A significant number of people could tell the different beer, which was when we were told the difference was cold steeping the roasted grains separately versus being in the mash for the whole 60 minutes. I much preferred the one with 60 minutes in the mash. The majority of people preferred the other, though it wasn't overwhelming. It certainly makes a difference.

Personally I think the personal taste angle is more important than the mash pH angle here. You can use baking soda or slaked lime to adjust the pH back up if it goes too far, which it doesn't sound like it is from your numbers.

For me I want them in at the start because I love those flavours. For you, it's completely your preference.
 
I'm of the opinion that 5.5-5.6 is a good mash pH, and if you add baking soda whereby to hit a nominal targeted 5.55 mash pH, along with leaving the deep roasted malts/grains in the mash, your deep roast malts will not cause the problem that concerns you.

Oatmeal is not (in my opinion) going to achieve a target goal of non-cloying sweetness. In my opinion oatmeal doesn't do much of anything beneficial, with the sole exception that it raises mash pH, which in the case of an acidic mash would in and of itself be considered beneficial. But I'd rather add some additional baking soda than rely upon oatmeal and fight with the very real potential of a stuck mash. Sweetness would (again in my opinion) require adding some level of Lactose powder. If you consider 1 Lb. of Lactose added to ~5.5 gallons to be cloying, simply add 1/4 to 1/2 of that.

And to avoid an undesired lactic acid like aftertaste stay away from S-04 yeast.

Yes, my preference for oatmeal in a stout is the smooth mouthfeel. I've heard that slightly baking the oatmeal will give a very light taste as well. For sweetness, my approach is to use a fairly low attenuation yeast (english ale) and ferment at low temps to reduce yeast taste contributions. I also am brewing for some friends who are lactose "sensitive", so I want to avoid overdoing the lactose.

Having said that, I'm glad to hear that the harsh/astringent effect of the dark grains will be minimal with a mash pH appropriate to style. I believe that with my source water, the pH would be nearly 5.5 with the dark grains in the mash, so maybe the oatmeal may kick it up to 5.55.

Thanks for the input!
 
I was at a homebrewers conference where we were given three oatmeal stouts for a triangle test without being told the difference. A significant number of people could tell the different beer, which was when we were told the difference was cold steeping the roasted grains separately versus being in the mash for the whole 60 minutes. I much preferred the one with 60 minutes in the mash. The majority of people preferred the other, though it wasn't overwhelming. It certainly makes a difference.

Personally I think the personal taste angle is more important than the mash pH angle here. You can use baking soda or slaked lime to adjust the pH back up if it goes too far, which it doesn't sound like it is from your numbers.

For me I want them in at the start because I love those flavours. For you, it's completely your preference.

No, I don't think that the pH of the non-dark grain mash would be prohibitive, but want to see if my assumption was in line with people with more experience. I may split the dark malts half and half in mash and post mash and see what the resulting pH is. I just want to avoid astringency which I'm pretty sensitive to. No better way than to try and see.

Thanks for your feedback!
 
Personally I would add them at the start of the mash. You can mash at slightly higher temps if you want more sweetness in the beer.

That and a low attenuating yeast was what I was thinking. I just wasn't sure about the astringency/harshness effect of mashing with dark malt. But maybe I've got a solution for that (half and half in mash and after mash). Will see.

Thanks for your help.
 
That and a low attenuating yeast was what I was thinking. I just wasn't sure about the astringency/harshness effect of mashing with dark malt. But maybe I've got a solution for that (half and half in mash and after mash). Will see.

Thanks for your help.
Keep us posted how it turns out! :) Cheers
 
I'm not a fan of lactose and would avoid that and use some crystal malt for a sweetness contribution.
The oatmeal will give you a nice mouth feel and silkyness.
As far as pH goes, targeting 5.4 will work well and you can get there with lactic acid, acidulated malt, or other means, just don't overdo it.
I like to add most of my dark malts to the mash and then before sparge, cap it with additional to really drive the darkness without adding the bitterness from those grains. It comes out very smooth and not harsh at all.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Cheers!
Brian
 
And to avoid an undesired lactic acid like aftertaste stay away from S-04 yeast.
I have never experienced this with S04. It is on the dry side and the malt is somewhat subdued by this yeast, but I never gotten the tartness from it as I have from Nottingham yeast. Kviek Voss has a tartness to it too, but not an excessively low pH.
 

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