Grab the RA targets from Recipe Editor to Water Calc

[Mont Y. Märzen]

I frequently have to bounce back and forth when doing a water calc between the Calc and the More section of the Recipe Editor to check if my RA is in line for the style.

It would be nice if the style RA range was pulled into the Summary section and some indicator (similar to the ion level icons) given if the RA is within the proper range.

*Note—per the excellent education I received below, I officially withdraw this request, but I'm leaving this here in case someone else wants to learn why.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

With respect to the mash, RA is merely derivative nonsense. I truly hope that no modern mash pH assistant software is relying upon it.

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

Can you expound a bit or point me to a good source on that? I've tried finding info on which (RA/pH) is more important and have come up empty.

Is Palmer the only one discussing it? I thought perhaps he included it simply as 'rule of thumb' for those who didn't have more advance calculators. But I wasn't sure.

I'm more than happy to stick with pH targets via the BF Water Calc then, and withdraw the request.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Can you expound a bit or point me to a good source on that?

I'll do both!

In mEq units for all components involved, RA is expressed as follows:

RA = Total_Alkalinity -(Ca/3.5 + Mg/7)

In the 1950's (or before) German brewing scientist Paul Kolbach was determining the degree of pH drop exhibited from the onset of mash to the terminus of knockout (post boil and cooling). Based upon the malt(s) he used, he derived the divisors of 3.5 and 7 seen in the equation above. He defined RA as that portion of initial alkalinity which survives through to knockout, when the mash water (and sparge water) have extant calcium and magnesium ions.

Somehow this got contorted initially into a presumption of mash exclusive conditions, totally ignoring that it was intended only for knockout.

Then the divisors of 3.5 and 7 got elevated to the status of unquestioned and definitive truth. And thus it stood until:

In about 2016 a research chemist named Roger Barth and his graduate student assistant Rameez Zaman undertook to duplicate and verify Kolbach's work, while limiting it exclusively to the mash only (such as how that is what everyone does, for reasons totally unknown, and in defiance of the actual Kolbach 'knockout pH' in the presence of calcium and magnesium ions research).

They chose three base malts. Pilsner, Pale, and Munich. They concentrated upon researching Calcium only, excluding magnesium. And they observed during the mash only. What they found through repeated study was that the 3.5 Kolbach divisor for calcium spanned from 7.2 to 14.2 (from memory here) within the mash depending upon which of the three malts they were mashing at the time. So in respect to the mEq (milliequivelents) equation, it becomes:

RA = Total_Alkalinity -[Ca/(~7 to ~14) + Mg/(?)]

Who knows what malts and unmalted grains other than the specific lots of their three chosen representatives might turn up with for their denominator values. All that Barth and Zaman proved was that given lots of given malts did indeed have repeatable denominators (just as Kolbach discovered, albeit that he was (1) looking at knockout, and not the mash, and (2) he perhaps limited his research to a single malt type and species and lot). Again, off the top of my head, I believe they assigned a calcium divisor of ~14.2 to their Pilsner malt, a divisor of ~7.2 to their pale malt, and a divisor of ~12.3 to their Munich malt. Mind you that these are specific lots analyzed at certain ages and your lots and malt species will likely not be in line with theirs. And a few months later, theirs may no longer be in line with theirs... And perhaps if they chose a different crush their denominator values would have been different... Etc...

Thus RA is and will always be an unknown and contrived derivative conception that can no longer stand due to what were presumed fixed value divisors being found to be quite wildly variable. Barth and Zaman's published and peer reviewed research paper on this matter is titled "Influence of Strike Water Alkalinity and Hardness on Mash pH". It must be purchased.

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

Thus RA is and will always be an unknown and contrived derivative conception that can no longer stand due to what were presumed fixed value divisors being found to be quite wildly variable.

Excellent, thank you! That is exactly what I needed to know. "RA to the dustbin" it is!

I shall fret over it no more.

I was familiar with the RA calculation from using our Lemott BrewLab water test kit. I didn't know where those divisors came from. Now I know they were just an observation based on limited data. (both quantity and scope) And this is yet another example of how some things take on a life of their own, and can be completely misunderstood and misapplied when someone doesn't know the origins of the concepts and theories. (not to mention the actual experiments and observations)

p.s.—great user name, I wholeheartedly agree!

 

[AHarper]

Very informative there - thanks Silver-Is-Money (I agree with name there too - invest in as much as you can with silver - it's massively under priced ATM).

I had to find out where Acadania was @Mont Y. Märzen - it turns out I drove through it back in 2014 from Baton Rouge through to Sulphur and beyond staying overnight in Iowa (town) - it was VERY wet. I don't remember any local beers though.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

If you mash a grist in DI or distilled water and it's mash pH is measured to be (for example) 5.62, and you mash the very same quantity of the exact same grist in the exact same volume of a water that contains both alkalinity and free (or dissociated) calcium ions, and you also for this water measure a mash pH of 5.62, you have achieved the idealized yet highly sought after state of:

RA = Zero

And from there you can solve for the calcium divisor associated with your grist and it's crush. Call it variable X.

For RA to be zero the following must be true for the case of mash water with alkalinity and calcium only:

Total_Alkalinity (as CaCO3) mEq's = (Ca++ MEq's)/X
(where 'X' = the elusive and variable divisor that has association with exclusively your grist)

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

I had to find out where Acadania was @Mont Y. Märzen - it turns out I drove through it back in 2014 from Baton Rouge through to Sulphur and beyond staying overnight in Iowa (town) - it was VERY wet. I don't remember any local beers though.

The scene was pretty sparse back then. We've seen a brewery come and go down the street from me (Cajun Brewing, sadly) but many have cropped up. I still have two within about 30–45 minutes of traffic, and of course BR has about 5+. (I think NOLA has 4-5 times that) And if you head West from me, (on your way to Sulphur) Lake Charles has Crying Eagle. They have a superbly delicious Strawberry Rye.

And yeah, it rains—a lot—it is getting ready to rain for about 36 hrs straight starting this afternoon. I think we were overcast for 6+ weeks from early June through mid July with 'real rain' every day. ('real rain' is where you absolutely cannot go from house to car without looking like you just dove in a swimming pool, anything less is a drizzle not to worry yourself over.)

*For those not from these parts, Iowa is pronounced 'eye-oh-way' here. But yes, the people who initially settled it were from the State of Iowa. And for more historical tid bits, the state got its name from the Ioway people, a native nation living there at the time. It is a Sioux word meaning 'sleepy ones' and yes Iowa, Louisiana is a 'sleepy town' as not much happens there. Funny that's where you stayed overnight!

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

If you mash a grist in DI or distilled water and it's mash pH is measured to be (for example) 5.62, and you mash the very same quantity of the exact same grist in the exact same volume of a water that contains both alkalinity and free (or dissociated) calcium ions, and you also for this water measure a mash pH of 5.62, you have achieved the idealized yet highly sought after state of:

RA = Zero

And from there you can solve for the calcium divisor associated with your grist and it's crush. Call it variable X.

For RA to be zero the following must be true for the case of mash water with alkalinity and calcium only:

Total_Alkalinity (as CaCO3) mEq's = (Ca++ MEq's)/X
(where 'X' = the elusive and variable divisor that has association with exclusively your grist)

Thanks!

That completes my trip down the rabbit hole.

I think I'll just stick to DI pH and leave RA alone. pH seems more useful and I have a meter for it!

But if I ever get really bored, I'll start doing RA calculations when I do Congress mashes.

 

[AHarper]

The scene was pretty sparse back then. We've seen a brewery come and go down the street from me (Cajun Brewing, sadly) but many have cropped up. I still have two within about 30–45 minutes of traffic, and of course BR has about 5+. (I think NOLA has 4-5 times that) And if you head West from me, (on your way to Sulphur) Lake Charles has Crying Eagle. They have a superbly delicious Strawberry Rye.

And yeah, it rains—a lot—it is getting ready to rain for about 36 hrs straight starting this afternoon. I think we were overcast for 6+ weeks from early June through mid July with 'real rain' every day. ('real rain' is where you absolutely cannot go from house to car without looking like you just dove in a swimming pool, anything less is a drizzle not to worry yourself over.)

*For those not from these parts, Iowa is pronounced 'eye-oh-way' here. But yes, the people who initially settled it were from the State of Iowa. And for more historical tid bits, the state got its name from the Ioway people, a native nation living there at the time. It is a Sioux word meaning 'sleepy ones' and yes Iowa, Louisiana is a 'sleepy town' as not much happens there. Funny that's where you stayed overnight!

It has a rabbit festival that we sadly missed -) but it also had an RV site near the route - we were on a Harley MB trip from Orlando to LA (I drove the RV) the next stop was Austin.