Yeast Calc

Discussion in 'Calculator Support Forum' started by zsoker, Apr 11, 2019.

  1. zsoker

    zsoker New Member

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    Noticed that the first step of the starter has lost the C.White stir plate option. The second step still has it. Can you please fix this bug for my next brew? Thank you!
     
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  2. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    We removed it, because it was inaccurate. It should not be showing up in the second step, and we'll fix that. Sorry for your trouble.
     
  3. emsroth

    emsroth Member

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    Is there an explanation as to why it’s inaccurate? I utilized it and it got me consistent results. The Braukaiser always seemed to over-estimate the cell count.
     
  4. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    The reason is because the results don’t change- no matter what you do. A step up? Same results. A bigger starter? Same results. Smaller starter- same results. There is something fundamentally wrong with the calculation, and so we removed it from our list of choices until it is corrected.
     
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  5. emsroth

    emsroth Member

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    That was not my experience, so it must have been something new. I never changed the gravity, so that was no issue. But if I changed the size of the starter (in liters) using the stirplate equation, I would always get appropriate results. I could adjust the size and use steps to achieve the cell count I wanted without issue. I’m surprised to see it go away so quickly.
     
  6. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    The C. White one was always flawed, from what I can tell. We couldn’t find the correction, so we had to get rid of it. I’m sorry that you’re disappointed with that, but we couldn’t let it stay like that.
     
  7. emsroth

    emsroth Member

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    But what about the other White ones? Are not those also wrong?
     
  8. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    No, those seem to be working correctly from what I recall.
     
  9. emsroth

    emsroth Member

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    Any updates on this? I used the Braukaiser calculator and underpitched my beer. That’s DIPA wasted now. Please fix the Chris White stir plate equation.
     
  10. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    Underpitching should not occur with the calculator- it is known to be very good an accurate. Can you give us some details on the underpitching?
     
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  11. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    My question is if the OP did a cell count? I mean an actual cell count with a hemocytometer and a microscope. Otherwise, he/she is just guessing about an underpitch. As nearly as I can tell, the calculator is as accurate as it can be given the variables in cell count (viability of the starter pitch, agitation, temperature of incubation, starter gravity, oxygenation....). Quite simply, unless a brewer does a true cell count on their starter, any calculator is an estimate at best. The level of accuracy Emsroth seems to want may be beyond any calculator. As far as ruining a DIPA through underpitching, this from Brulosophy:

    Interestingly, results from a previous xBmt found participants were unable to reliably distinguish an ale fermented with a single pack of yeast (~56 billion cells) from the same beer fermented with yeast propagated in a starter (~237 billion cells), suggesting underpitching may not be as detrimental as many believe in otherwise ideal conditions.

    I admit Emsroth may be a microbiologist with vast experience at counting yeast cells. If so, the calculator will quite probably never live up to his expectations. It works for the vast majority of us.
     
  12. Pricelessbrewing

    Pricelessbrewing QA Software Tester
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    Braukaisers the more accurate equation and is within a margin of error of known max yeast cell densities for propagation, which is what most yeast companies use.

    Whites formulas however, while well served and was the best available at the time, are based on research that as far as I'm aware was never published publicly and doesn't always give realistic results.

    Neither are perfect, as different strains have different growth rates and max cell densities. But I recommend braukaisers formula, or a volume based starter like Omega yeast recommends.
     
  13. oliver

    oliver Well-Known Member

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    Omega Yeast's research essentially says that all cell count calculators are lying to you, as each strain reproduces its cells very differently. Omega recommends biomass as their technique for pitching rates and prop very dissimilar to Wyeast and White Labs. That research is hopefully going to be released soon.
     
  14. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    That was my point. There are lots of calculators, none of which work well. So pitch rate is kind of like back pain: Find the placebo that works and keep using it. If you aren't doing cell counts, viability checks, and measuring your slurry accurately, you're pitch is not accurate. The calculator on the site works for me and for me, that's all that matters.
     
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  15. Pricelessbrewing

    Pricelessbrewing QA Software Tester
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    Biomass will absolutely be the more accurate process. Man I should have asked lance, adi, or laura about that at kveik fest when I had almost all of omega in front of me...
     
  16. oliver

    oliver Well-Known Member

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