Using rice and wheat

Discussion in 'General Brewing Discussions' started by jmcnamara, Nov 30, 2018.

  1. jmcnamara

    jmcnamara Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2012
    Messages:
    2,457
    Likes Received:
    1,947
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Rosedale, MD
    I'm trying to brew something like a hefeweizen but not as full bodied. And I'm going to punch up the hop flavor a bit.

    I'm thinking of using some rice to help dry out the beer a bit, but that seems like it would just counter the wheat. I should add I'm using pilsner malt as the base, probably 60% or so.

    Any thoughts?
     
  2. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    9,418
    Likes Received:
    6,671
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Aurora, CO, USA
    Any reason for preferring rice over plain sugar?
     
    oliver likes this.
  3. jmcnamara

    jmcnamara Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2012
    Messages:
    2,457
    Likes Received:
    1,947
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Rosedale, MD
    not particularly

    overall, i'm going for a somewhat tropical hefeweizen, fermented to bring out banana from the yeast, and dosed with a little coconut extract at packaging
     
    Trialben likes this.
  4. Ozarks Mountain Brew

    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Messages:
    7,767
    Likes Received:
    3,977
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    IT Managment
    Location:
    The Ozark Mountains of Missouri
    flaked rice does not dry the beer out like sugar does, it also has a distinct flavor and texture at first then goes away
     
    Trialben likes this.
  5. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    9,418
    Likes Received:
    6,671
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Aurora, CO, USA
    I've never used rice in beer, hence the question.
     
  6. oliver

    oliver Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2015
    Messages:
    959
    Likes Received:
    371
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Occupation:
    LHBS owner
    Location:
    NOLA
    simple sugars will bring out the banana. skip the rice, use dextrose.
     
    jmcnamara likes this.
  7. jmcnamara

    jmcnamara Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2012
    Messages:
    2,457
    Likes Received:
    1,947
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Rosedale, MD
    yeah, definitely don't want to bring extra flavor into the equation, there's going to be enough going on in this beer
     
  8. jmcnamara

    jmcnamara Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2012
    Messages:
    2,457
    Likes Received:
    1,947
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Rosedale, MD
  9. J A

    J A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    3,476
    Likes Received:
    2,694
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Austin, Texas
    Krisallweissbier ;)
    I could definitely see the hops working with the right combination of malt. I'd be interested in pushing the flavor with more wheat and the lightness with plenty of rice as you first suggested and see how dry you could get it - sort of like a "Brut IPA" with much more yeast character. Maybe if you went in after fermentation with cane sugar and champagne yeast you could get the attenuation way down.
     
  10. jmcnamara

    jmcnamara Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2012
    Messages:
    2,457
    Likes Received:
    1,947
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Rosedale, MD
    did not care for the 1 or 2 Brut IPAs i've had, so i don't want it to be too dry
     
    thunderwagn likes this.
  11. Trialben

    Trialben Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2016
    Messages:
    9,450
    Likes Received:
    9,525
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Pest control tech
    Location:
    Palmwoods QLD
    I've found that rice doesn't dry out the beer neither well not dramatically like you'd think. I also find it doesn't thin out the flavour well not then three times I've used it twice in Ozarks Blondie and now in my similar mix up summertime lager. I'm still undecided on rice "flavour" maybe it's the type I've used standard white rice for cooking and flaked rice from breakfast isle. It kinda has a subtle sweetness unless I'm picking that up from the Vienna but "flavour" is definitely unique.

    You'll have to try it for your self. If not just keep the wheat percentage lower than your pilsner. If using a wheatbier yeast it should attenuate pretty well and dry it out some (If that's what your going for) and then there is sugar...
     
  12. oliver

    oliver Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2015
    Messages:
    959
    Likes Received:
    371
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Occupation:
    LHBS owner
    Location:
    NOLA
    you can also go 50/50 wheat and pilsner. I believe the brewing classic styles book is just 50/50 Weyermann or Continental Pils and Wheat (red or white from Rahr will work). dextrose or cane sugar like you have will ensure some more banana aroma on the yeast.

    I've made some hefe-neipa type things, they're very good. I had best results when using a a grain bill and yeast more close to a hefeweizen, and using hops and water profile more close to a NEIPA. big whirlpool at slightly lower temps, around 165-170F, and a healthy dry hop will give off some really desirable flavors that play well with banana.
     
  13. jmcnamara

    jmcnamara Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2012
    Messages:
    2,457
    Likes Received:
    1,947
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Rosedale, MD
    That's a good point on the water profile. I would have just made it balanced otherwise
     
  14. J A

    J A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    3,476
    Likes Received:
    2,694
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Austin, Texas
    I was very surprised by the one example that I tried. Basically a hoppy lite beer with a little more kick and a lot more malty flavor than something like Coors or Miller.
    I doubt that you could get even close to the that without extra enzymes so I'd bet that with up to 20% rice you might attenuate to .007 or maybe a little lower. Your 10% sugar will get you pretty similar results, I'm sure.
     
  15. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    9,418
    Likes Received:
    6,671
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Aurora, CO, USA
    Rice is Budweiser's secret weapon, just sayin'.
     
    thunderwagn and J A like this.
  16. J A

    J A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    3,476
    Likes Received:
    2,694
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Austin, Texas
    I dig my rice lagers. Can't be beat in the summer heat! :)
    I made an International Dark Lager with 20% rice to keep it light in body so the dark caramel and pinch of roast would shine through. Definitely reminds me of the Michelob Classic Dark I used to enjoy in the 80s.
     
    thunderwagn likes this.
  17. jmcnamara

    jmcnamara Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2012
    Messages:
    2,457
    Likes Received:
    1,947
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Rosedale, MD
    You seem to brew a lot of NEIPAs, what's a good water profile?
     
    oliver likes this.
  18. oliver

    oliver Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2015
    Messages:
    959
    Likes Received:
    371
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Occupation:
    LHBS owner
    Location:
    NOLA
    I've seen a lot of research and done a lot of my own tests.

    I used to do zero sodium and magnesium additions at a profile of something like, Ca: 125, Mg: 0, Na: 0, Cl: 185, SO4: 70. Surprisingly that profile turns out both juicy and dry. No sodium to balance it out.

    A Scott Janish article seems to point at Ca: 125, Mg: 5, Na: 10, Cl: 200, SO4: 75

    I like that profile, but I prefer a 4:1 ratio... Ca: 115, Mg: 5, Na: 10, Cl: 200, SO4: 50 ... with that profile, I typically don't need any acid additions either, the gypsum and CaCl is enough to drive the mash pH down to about 5.35.

    I've also tried Ca: 125, Mg: 5, Na: 10, Cl: 150, SO4: 150, and hated it. It certainly could have been the hop combination I used, but I hated that beer. It was way too bitter and astringent, maybe the sulfate took over and accentuated all the wrong things.


    getting off track, but whatever... In the future, I'd like to do two experimental profiles.

    First one is based on some Brulosophy experiment, but I want to bump up the sodium to see how soft and balanced out I can the flavors. Something like this: Ca: 100, Mg: 0, Na: 75, Cl: 200, SO4: 75 ... could be interesting?

    Second one, I want to do a NEIPA with zero sulfate additions. Ca: 50, Mg: 0, Na: 10, Cl: 100, SO4: 0 ... if the ratio of chloride to sulfate is indeed what makes these beers soft and sweet, then this profile might make a pillow. No idea.
     
  19. J A

    J A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    3,476
    Likes Received:
    2,694
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Austin, Texas
    I'm interested in this too. It seems like some of the NEIPAs and hazy pales around here are made in such a way that I feel like I'm tasting the water additions and it distracts from the beer.
     
  20. Wortboy

    Wortboy New Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2018
    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    19
    Trophy Points:
    3
    The Winco grocery store near me sells coconut sugar in the bulk section. I've used it in a few pale ales. It dries out the beer but also adds a little character to the taste. I usually throw in about a pound for a standard APA.
     

Share This Page

arrow_white