Trub vs no trub

Discussion in 'General Brewing Discussions' started by sn00ky, Jun 1, 2018.

  1. sn00ky

    sn00ky Active Member

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    Interesting observation with a little experiment. Same batch same yeast split 3 ways. Only difference is runoff from the kettle. Center is clear with no trub, right side has lots of trub, left side is somewhere in the middle. Picture was taken 10 hours after pitching. S-04 pitched on 1.063 OG ESB.

    I've read the brulosophy experiment before excited to see how this one compares. 20180601_045838-2016x1512.jpg
     
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  2. Trialben

    Trialben Well-Known Member

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    Yep they found the truby beer cleared better too if my memory serves me correct and fermentation was more vigorous in the truby batch as it seems to be the case in your ferm chamber...
     
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  3. CRUNK

    CRUNK Well-Known Member

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    Brewing great beer not just mediocre beer is all about process everyone's process is a little different than someone else's because of the differentials in each person's system I myself love to Crunch the numbers so I'm very particular about everything I do and when it comes to a trub cone I prefer to leave as much in the kettle as possible, I have not as of yet read the brulosophy experiment on trub so I do not know if it was conducted on multiple styles of beer or just one style of beer but I believe being familiar with the style of beer you're making is important

    When you have larger particles in suspension and you have used the clearing agents i e whirlfloc and the like it makes it easier for the smaller particles to attach to the larger particles as they begin dropping out of suspension. The same effect can not be visualized when you ferment under pressure (spunding) which also pushes from the top down as gravity so when you have a real clear wort with as little trub as possible it will in turn push the smaller particles downwards to settle in the yeast cake.

    I have been brewing for two years and I can honestly say I still learn something new every time so I do not claim to know all there is but I can tell you what I've learned bye crunching my numbers in the biggest thing that has had an effect on repeatability is process process process.

    I am so comfortable Brewing my Landschaft Helles and the process Within that I can start the mash walk away for 2 hours come back Lauter it begin to boil walk away for another hour with the exception of coming in to add the Hops at the right time and let the beer finish boiling, and I can achieve the exact same numbers every single time without question whether I'm standing in front of it the entire time or whether I'm out mowing the lawn while it's mashing.

    I didn't mean to hijack your post but again I prefer as little troop as possible my main beer Style has always been German lagers so on many of those Clarity is important as you drink with your eyes first.
     

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  4. sn00ky

    sn00ky Active Member

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    @Trialben Yup, pretty excited, fermentation is kicked in full speed now and looks like a locomotive charging away in the blow off jar, so awesome!

    @CRUNK That looks amazing, job well done I'd say! I think we have some in common, as I enjoy the particulars as well. I have dumped the kettle, and left the trub behind, but it has been on different recipes and styles, so not apples to apples. This time, its straight up fair game.

    Good on you with the helles, goes to show you are dialed in!
     
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  5. J A

    J A Well-Known Member

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    #5 J A, Jun 2, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2018
    I see a couple of things that don't quite add up...
    First, expanding CO2 doesn't necessarily exert pressure directionally, though it may be visualized as the CO2 pocket gathered at the top of the top of the vessel forcing the beer into a smaller volume, but as the CO2 becomes suspended in solution (it starts out more or less suspended during fermentation, being produced a molecule at a time), the headspace should equalize at the same pressure as the liquid.

    Second, if the pressure were indeed acting on larger particles in concert with gravity to push them down, logic would tell you that it would be even more effective at clearing trub and you wouldn't have to worry about removing it at transfer from the keg.

    Third, we all pressurize beer eventually when we put it in a keg or bottle and it continues to clear by the same mechanism as you're describing during spunding, so there doesn't seem to be a special case relating to clearing during fermentation under pressure. The only difference I can see there is that if all the pressure from CO2 from fermentation were contained (it isn't) then the action of rising CO2 escaping into headspace and out the airlock wouldn't allow particles to be borne up in the lava-lamp effect we see during active fermentation and they might stay settled. As it is, some of the pressure is released from the spunding valve which is a regulator, not a stopper and the gas still rises to the top, creating some of the the agitation.

    Once CO2 pressure equalizes and can't escape, or once the beer is in a keg and there's no place for CO2 to go except into suspension, it ceases to attach molecules to particles and push them upward, so they settle. I think being cold (CO2 being more easily suspended in solution) helps more for clearing than extra pressure.



    PS...I'm not trying to say you're wrong, just interested in exploring the technicalities. :)
    I think there are some advantages to spunding, but I'm not sure that the wort-clearing thing is making sense for me. ;)
     
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  6. Ozarks Mountain Brew

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    I've done the trub test extensively and you need the trub for a better fermentation, if you were to pull clear beer off the trub you need a bunch of additives to help the yeast and a teaspoon of nutrient just isn't the same so I always leave the trub
     
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  7. sn00ky

    sn00ky Active Member

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    Oz,

    So far my my experiment lines up with your findings! Trub fermenter kicked in hard right away whereas the others worked their way up too
     
  8. CRUNK

    CRUNK Well-Known Member

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    I do carry trub over, I just limit the amount to as little as possible. I just find with my process, my beers seem to clear faster, as I said everyones process is different in many ways, it's really about knowing your process and sticking to it and or improving where each individual sees fit. There's no wrong way in my opinion that's what makes brewing so interesting.
     
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  9. J A

    J A Well-Known Member

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    If you ever judge a homebrew competition, some of the entries might change your mind on that. :D :D
    I'd refine that statement to say that there's more than one right way to make good beer. :)
    I'd be very curious to see the results if you did a batch using your LODO methodology and left all the trub in. It would be a really good comparison and yield some great data since you seem to be very rigorous and fastidious about process and records. If you're ever up for it, I'll be happy pitch in to buy the ingredients. :)
     
  10. sn00ky

    sn00ky Active Member

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    Definitely full on fermenting now, the trub carboy is like 10 bubbles per second vs 1 per second on the clear wort. But all looking good! Picture taken 36 hours post pitching

    20180602_045722-2016x1512.jpg
     
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  11. Trialben

    Trialben Well-Known Member

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    Onya snook next thing youll get poached to brulosophy crew:):p!
     
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  12. CRUNK

    CRUNK Well-Known Member

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    I have enough ingredients for my next 20 brew sessions, I currently have 2 lagers going but I will be brewing another next saturday, in which I will split and test.
     
  13. sn00ky

    sn00ky Active Member

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    Haha, a ways to get there !!!
     
  14. sn00ky

    sn00ky Active Member

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    20 sessions, wow! I just stocked up yesterday for2 batches plus some common grains, 2 row and crystals... 20180603_045632-2016x1512.jpg

    How long will it take you to get through those 20 sessions? Curiosity regarding your grain storage !
     
  15. sn00ky

    sn00ky Active Member

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    20180603_045550-2016x1512.jpg

    Chugging along...
     
  16. wobdee

    wobdee Member

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    The main reason I like to go with as little trub as possible is for yeast harvesting. I like clean healthy slurry for the next batch. I'm currently on my 12th generation of wy2124, still going strong.
     
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  17. J A

    J A Well-Known Member

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  18. sn00ky

    sn00ky Active Member

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    Makes sense, I had considered hanging on to the yeast from the clean one just for this reason!

    12 runs - are you rinsing it? Or do you just keep everything?
     
  19. sn00ky

    sn00ky Active Member

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  20. wobdee

    wobdee Member

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    No rinsing or washing, just swirl it up in fermenter to loosen then pour about half the yeast cake into a sanitized mason jar.
     
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