Steeping grains for a BIAB Dunkel?

Discussion in 'General Brewing Discussions' started by Brewer #49306, Dec 27, 2018.

  1. Brewer #49306

    Brewer #49306 New Member

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    Hi

    I was wondering if there would be any advantage to steeping the darker grains for part of the mash, 20 minutes maybe, versus just mashing them?

    Thanks
     
  2. FedoraDave

    FedoraDave Member

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    I never separate my grains and steep some rather than mash. I just put them all in together. And if there was something fishy about doing that, I know my LHBS guy would have said something to me by now. But he knows all my grains are in the same bag, mixed, not milled.
     
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  3. jmcnamara

    jmcnamara Well-Known Member

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    I do something sort of like that, but I throw in the dark grains at end of mash. You're pulling more color than flavor from the grains, so you can get a dark beer that's not roasty.

    Fwiw, I did that on a schwarzbier recently and I don't think it had enough roast character. Honestly, it tasted pretty close to a brown ale I made the batch before
     
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  4. Brewer #49306

    Brewer #49306 New Member

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    I was worrying about astringency or the harshness that sometimes occurs in a stout coming through in a Dunkel. Probably just worrying too much.
     
  5. Iliff Avenue Brewhouse

    Iliff Avenue Brewhouse Well-Known Member

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    A dunkel should have very little if any roasted grain and is mostly for color adjustments. At small amounts I just put it in for the full mash.
     
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  6. Brewer #49306

    Brewer #49306 New Member

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    Okay. I guess I shouldn’t worry about 6 ounces in a 6 gallon batch. Thanks.
     
  7. Iliff Avenue Brewhouse

    Iliff Avenue Brewhouse Well-Known Member

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    #7 Iliff Avenue Brewhouse, Dec 27, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2018
    Maybe. What kind of malt? I would not use more than a couple oz for a dunkel which is all about Munich bready goodness. With 6 oz I would go with your original plan. Maybe post your recipe.
     
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  8. Brewer #49306

    Brewer #49306 New Member

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    Recipe,
    Pilsner 4 lb 12 oZ
    Munich Malt 10l lb 4 oz
    CaraMunich 11 oz
    Crystal 120 11 oz
    Simpson’s Extra Dark 5 oz
    Melanoidin Malt 5 oz
     
  9. Iliff Avenue Brewhouse

    Iliff Avenue Brewhouse Well-Known Member

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    Sorry I thought when you said darker grains you were referring to roasted malts.
     
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  10. Brewer #49306

    Brewer #49306 New Member

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    #10 Brewer #49306, Dec 27, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2018
    My bad! I didn’t specify.

    I should have posted the grain bill in the first post.
     
  11. AHarper

    AHarper Well-Known Member

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    Hi Guys,
    I am making a stab at a Dunkle Bock and came up with the following recipe based on what I have in my cupboard.
    I followed the Recipe Builder guides and got green ticks for all the requirements of the style but as I have never made one before and not really sure if I have drunk one (despite many visits to Germany over 25 yrs ago - and many beers) I would be interested in feedback as to whether the recipe will work out and taste like it is supposed to. Any clues would be gratefully received.

    For instance. Is the balance of dark grains correct (or is there too much Crystal 90)? Should I increase the German Amber / Red X?
    Should I reduce the MOP and substitute some Munich Dark (though I'd have to buy that and I'm already in the dog house for getting so much stuff for Christmas)? Should I ditch the recipe and rebuild it with complete German Lager / Dark grains? Is Hallertau a suitable hop?

    Regards
    Alan


    HOME BREW RECIPE:
    Title: Dunkle Wilhelm
    Author: Alan Harper

    Brew Method: All Grain
    Style Name: Dunkles Bock
    Boil Time: 60 min
    Batch Size: 23 liters (fermentor volume)
    Boil Size: 25 liters
    Boil Gravity: 1.050
    Efficiency: 70% (brew house)


    STATS:
    Original Gravity: 1.069
    Final Gravity: 1.019
    ABV (standard): 6.56%
    IBU (tinseth): 19.32
    SRM (morey): 17.81
    Mash pH: 5.41

    FERMENTABLES:
    1 kg - German - CaraAmber (14.7%)
    1 kg - German - Red X (14.7%)
    500 g - United Kingdom - Crystal 90L (7.4%)
    3.3 kg - United Kingdom - Maris Otter Pale (48.5%)
    1 kg - Dry Malt Extract - Amber - (late addition) (14.7%)

    HOPS:
    10 g - Hallertau Hersbrucker, Type: Pellet, AA: 4, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 4.43
    30 g - Hallertau Hersbrucher, Type: Pellet, AA: 4, Use: Boil for 40 min, IBU: 11.67
    20 g - Hallertau Hersbrucher, Type: Pellet, AA: 4, Use: Aroma for 10 min, IBU: 3.21

    MASH GUIDELINES:
    1) Infusion, Temp: 65 C, Time: 60 min, Amount: 10.5 L
    2) Sparge, Temp: 70 C, Time: 60 min, Amount: 16 L
    Starting Mash Thickness: 3 L/kg

    OTHER INGREDIENTS:
    5 g - Calcium Chloride, Time: 60 min, Type: Water Agt, Use: Mash
    3 g - Gypsum, Time: 60 min, Type: Water Agt, Use: Mash
    6 g - Irish Moss, Time: 12 min, Type: Fining, Use: Boil

    YEAST:
    Fermentis / Safale - Safbrew - General/Belgian Yeast S-33
    Starter: No
    Form: Dry
    Attenuation (avg): 70%
    Flocculation: High
    Optimum Temp: 12.22 - 25 C
    Fermentation Temp: 21 C
    Pitch Rate: 0.75 (M cells / ml / deg P)

    TARGET WATER PROFILE:
    Profile Name: Light colored and malty
    Ca2: 60
    Mg2: 5
    Na: 10
    Cl: 95
    SO4: 55
    HCO3: 0
    Water Notes:
    QX9HMHR
     
  12. Iliff Avenue Brewhouse

    Iliff Avenue Brewhouse Well-Known Member

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    Alan, I would find a tried and true recipe and tweak from there.

    22% is entirely too much crystal malt and there is no Munich malt which is a strong component of dunkles. Marris Otter should not be used as a base grain for a German lager and that yeast just won’t do.

    Listen to me sounding like the beer police! Just my opinion. Don’t mean to be harsh. Brew what you like. Cheers!
     
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  13. AHarper

    AHarper Well-Known Member

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    Hey no problem. It may be a fundamental problem with the recipe builder as it allows you to make a recipe to a "Style" without the appropriate real ingredients in it. As I said I used what I had to hand to replicate the style but I wasn't certain it would work out - hence my question.
    Thanks for the info anyway. I shall just have to buy the right stuff and go from there. The recipe builder is fantastic - and it works out things correctly but it's flaw is the guide lines for style.
    Still it is fun to experiment. Muahh Haa Haa...
     
  14. Iliff Avenue Brewhouse

    Iliff Avenue Brewhouse Well-Known Member

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    I subbed out your malts below. I think this would get you closer but the color would probably be light. A couple oz of carafa special would solve that. Red X would probably be very interesting in this style. Just throwing some ideas around...

    FERMENTABLES:
    1 kg - German - Munich II (14.7%)
    1 kg - German - Red X (14.7%)
    500 g - German Pilsner (7.4%)
    3.3 kg - German Munich I (48.5%)
    1 kg - Dry Malt Extract - Light - (late addition) (14.7%)
     
  15. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    I don't think any crystal is appropriate, but that's my opinion. Lose it, replace with Munich.
     
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  16. AHarper

    AHarper Well-Known Member

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    I took another look at it - before I saw your suggestion - and I came up with this. It is distinctly more Aryan in flavour so I will get out the credit card and start buying. Forgive the dark, British, additions but I'm not buying the whole of the EU.


    FERMENTABLES:
    3 kg - German - Pilsner (45.1%)
    2 kg - German - Munich Dark (30.1%)
    1 kg - German - CaraAmber (15%)
    0.5 kg - Dry Malt Extract - Amber - (late addition) (7.5%)
    0.1 kg - United Kingdom - Extra Dark Crystal 160L (1.5%)
    0.05 kg - United Kingdom - Chocolate (0.8%)

    HOPS:
    20 g - Hallertau Hersbrucker, Type: Pellet, AA: 4, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 8.59
    10 g - Saaz, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.8, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 4.08
    20 g - Hallertau Hersbrucher, Type: Pellet, AA: 4, Use: Boil for 30 min, IBU: 6.6
    30 g - Hallertau Hersbrucher, Type: Pellet, AA: 4, Use: Aroma for 5 min, IBU: 2.57
     
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  17. Iliff Avenue Brewhouse

    Iliff Avenue Brewhouse Well-Known Member

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    #17 Iliff Avenue Brewhouse, Dec 28, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2018
    CaraAmber is a crystal malt. You should have little if any. Still not enough Munich.

    This may be helpful: Characteristic Ingredients: Munich and Vienna malts, rarely a tiny bit of dark roasted malts for color adjustment, never any non-malt adjuncts. Continental European hop varieties are used. Clean German lager yeast.
     
  18. AHarper

    AHarper Well-Known Member

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    OK, Try number 3 hehe.
    Thanks for input - I welcome any help to make a good beer so grateful for help.

    Revised recipe:
    ==============================================
    FERMENTABLES:
    3 kg - German - Pilsner (43.8%)
    3.7 kg - German - Munich Dark (54%)
    0.1 kg - United Kingdom - Extra Dark Crystal 160L (1.5%)
    0.05 kg - United Kingdom - Chocolate (0.7%)

    HOPS:
    20 g - Hallertau Hersbrucker, Type: Pellet, AA: 4, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 8.08
    10 g - Saaz, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.8, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 3.84
    20 g - Hallertau Hersbrucher, Type: Pellet, AA: 4, Use: Boil for 30 min, IBU: 6.21
    30 g - Hallertau Hersbrucher, Type: Pellet, AA: 4, Use: Aroma for 5 min, IBU: 2.42

    YEAST:
    Mangrove Jack - Bohemian Lager Yeast M84

    =============================================

    I still think the Builder would benefit from a Strict Style check box that would help beginners like me be restricted to correct choices of ingredients - just till they get braver and try out deviant style changes (maybe I should suggest it to Admin but they may not agree). Failing that it forces you to read up on all the style requirements. Is there a book on this? If not I will have to write it.
     
  19. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    BJCP style guide is a great place to start.
     
  20. AHarper

    AHarper Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Nosybear
     

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