pH, salts, and volumes change in brewing water calculator

Discussion in 'Calculator Support Forum' started by nununene, May 19, 2020.

  1. nununene

    nununene Member

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    I have created a recipe and I have entered the mash water and sparge water volumes in the recipe. I add to the sparge to take into account the losses (grain and hops absorption, line losses, left over in kettle and mash tun, etc. When I link a water calculation the water volumes are correct and I select my source and target waters. Then I enter the salts additons and acid addition and check to make sure everything is green and my SO4/Cl ratio and pH are where I want them. I then save the calculation and open the recipe and save it and update the recipe in the water profile section. I'll get the same numbers I checked but if I open it to edit it the volume is different and therefore everything else changes.

    I have checked my equipment profile and it matches what I expect for losses. I'm stumped as to why it keeps changing.
     
  2. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    Can you give me a link to the recipe where I can take a look and dig into it?
     
  3. nununene

    nununene Member

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  4. nununene

    nununene Member

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    I just noticed that it changes the volume from 12 gal (4.9 mash/7.1 sparge) to 9.2 gal (4.9 mash/4.3 sparge) every time. That really jacks up the Calcium, pH, and hardness.
     
  5. nununene

    nununene Member

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    I get a pop-up error that only lasts for a couple seconds. I was able to capture it and I'm going to upload the file. It seems like it is sensing that I have been in the calculator before and I need to restore the data? Hope it helps.
     

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  6. nununene

    nununene Member

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    did you happen to look at the recipe or the error I received?
     
  7. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    That isn't an error- it's telling you that you had already used the water calc with that recipe.

    Is this still happening to you? I can't reproduce any volumes changing on my end, so this is really tough to nail down.
     
  8. nununene

    nununene Member

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    if that is the case, why is it changing the volumes to something I never entered.
    I tried something new with a new recipe. here is my procedure

    I deleted all my previous water calcs then cleared all salts and acids from recipe and saved the recipe (https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/edit/1006591). Then I linked this record (https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=HXX0235) and entered desired salts and acid. results were 12.752 gal at mash = 4.8937 gal and sparge at 7.8587 gal. added 5 g gypsum, 18 g caco3, and 5 tsp 75% phosphoric acid. results were
    Mash pH *: 5.73 ↑
    Mash thickness: 1.45 qt/lb
    pH Delta from Water: 0.03
    effective water residual alkalinity: 214.97 ppm as CaCO3
    effective strength of weak acids: 201.16 ppm as CaCO3
    * mash prediction is for mash sample cooled to 25 C / 77 F
    Overall Water Report:
    mg/l mg/l mg/l mg/l mg/l Alkalinity as CaCO3 Residual Alkalinity as CaCO3
    Ca+2 Mg+2 Na+ Cl- SO4-2 ppm ppm
    115.8 2.0 102.0 39.0 77.8 135.2 51.4
    normal normal normal normal normal Range Check
    SO42-/Cl- ratio: 2.0 Little Bitter
    Then I saved and updated water calc and went to recipe to and updated the recipe.
    The numbers in the recipe didn't agree with the water calc and when I went in to edit the water calc the water volumes had changed and I got the link to restore the values. I clicked on it and the values for water volume changed from 12.752 to 9.7.
    This was with a new recipe, and all my previous water calculations deleted.
    Can you tell me the procedure for creating a water calculation for a recipe. I have done it many times without the notice that I had been there before and to restore previous data. Do the names of the recipes have to be completely different? I'm totally confused.
     
  9. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    Thanks for all of the details- I'll be digging into this as I can't recreate it on my account. Your water volumes in the water calc is pulled from the mash guidelines in your recipe. Did you change those volumes between visits to the calculator?
     
  10. nununene

    nununene Member

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    I did change the volumes in the previous recipe, though never to the volumes that it automatically changed to. In the new recipe I never changed the volumes in the recipe or the water calculator but the volumes changed to a value I never used before. The recipes have similar names but they are different.
     
  11. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    thanks for the info. I don’t want to screw up your recipes anymore than they are, so I’ll copy them in your account (but tag them with my name) and mess around with it ok? I can’t recreate in my account so I’ll do it in yours. The extra info you’ve given gives me something to go on, and I appreciate it.
     
  12. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    The first thing that I think is screwing things up is the water added to the HLT to cover the element. It increases your volume of water in the sparge, which isn’t involved in the mash pH, but I think that’s part of the issue. The total water volume is 9.7 in the calc, but 12.8 gallons in the mash guidelines. Since the water calc pulls the volume from the mash guidelines, I think that’s causing this weird behavior.

    I’m not seeing any water additions- are you adding anything to lower mash pH, calcium salts, etc?
     
  13. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    I’m all done in your account, but I left my test recipe in there so the developer could see the specific screenshots I took relating to the volume. The ticket has all of the extra detail, so thank you so much for providing all that information plus let me poke around in there.
     
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  14. nununene

    nununene Member

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    thanks, I noticed that the volumes in yooper copy aren't the same as in my recipe. I treat all the water, even the water left in the HLT so the heating element isn't uncovered.
     
  15. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    Yes, I do that too when I use my HERMS so I understand that.
     
  16. nununene

    nununene Member

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    as an experiment I copied the mango habanero ipa recipe and changed the volumes to 4.9 and 8 and edited the water profile, saved and updated then went to the recipe and updated the water profile in the recipe and saved it. I clicked on edit in the water profile section of the recipe and the volumes had changed to 6.71 and 3.69. I hadn't ever used that recipe and I'm wondering if it is my acct or something I'm doing wrong. Thanks for your help.
     
  17. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    It's pulling from the mash guidelines- do you have that set differently than what you're putting in the calculator?
     
  18. nununene

    nununene Member

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    When you say mash guidelines, are you talking about the water volume that I enter in the recipe in the mash section? If so then yes it is changing. I'll put something like 12 gallons in the recipe and when I go to the calculator it pulls that over and ends up being like 9.7 or 10 gallons in the calculator. That has been my entire problem this whole time.
    If on the other hand you're talking about another mass guideline then I really don't have any idea.
     
  19. nununene

    nununene Member

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    I have a 10 gallon mash ton, it's an igloo cooler (40qt in equipment profile). If I'm trying to put 12 gallons in there is that an issue with the calculator? I would figure that since your lautering at the same time you're sparging you're really not going to have any more than what's in the original mash. But is that a problem for the calculator?
     
  20. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    Yes, that's what I"m asking about. I am trying to nail down the issue, and this helps us. Thanks!
     

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