No mid boil hops?

Discussion in 'General Brewing Discussions' started by Vallka, Feb 19, 2018.

  1. Vallka

    Vallka Well-Known Member

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  2. oliver

    oliver Well-Known Member

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    I rarely do bittering additions anymore. I do 15 min and 5 min addition in equal amounts, and then a whirlpool addition that equals my 15 and 5 min additions combined. Then dry hop at least the same or more than my whirlpool additions. This has worked best for me.

    I found that JUST whirlpool and dry hop additions weren't enough for me. The 15 min addition almost turns into a 30 min addition the way I whirlpool. and then 5 into a 20 min addition.
     
  3. thunderwagn

    thunderwagn Well-Known Member

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    I still add my bittering hops at 60, but not much in the way of mid boil additions anymore. 20 minutes is pushing it for me.
     
  4. Group W

    Group W Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the article. Clearly it represents the trend over the years. I had a big IPA this weekend at a local pub that was mostly back end hopped. Not my cup of tea, but I have never been a big fan of dry-hop forward beers. I like the balance of bittering at 60 and flavoring at 15-20 min on a 60 min boil. I do include whirlpool and dry hops as necessary. Also, a lot depends on the maltyness of the grain bill and yeast.

    However, I reserve the right to change my mind.:)
     
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  5. dankbrewing@gmail.com

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    I have mostly gotten away from any additions in the middle. I like the full boil for bitter, but then use only 5 minute additions and whirlpool. I am tempted to try getting all the IBU's in the back end, but haven't done that yet.
     
  6. thehaze

    thehaze Active Member

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    Classic hopped/underhopped styles, get a 60 minutes bittering charge and something in the last 15-20 minutes.

    IPAs and NEIPAs, usually never get " classic " bittering charges anymore. I start at around the last 20 minutes and add hops every 3-5 minutes with a big-ass whirlpool. Dry hopping follows the styles, which demand it.
     
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  7. HighVoltageMan!

    HighVoltageMan! Well-Known Member

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    The idea that bittering hops need to be added early in the boil has been challenged in the last couple of years by both homebrewers and pro's as well. It's possible to make a great IPA/PA without early bittering additions. The isomerization of hop oils is said to stop at 180F and lower. However, a large amount of bitterness can be achieved in the whirlpool at 160-180F and many breweries have shifted the hop additions to later to preserve the volatile hop oils and compounds. It's rumored that Stone Brewery does not add any hops to the boil in some of their beers, only in the whirlpool. Some breweries gauge their hop utilization at @ 10-15% when they add to the whirlpool. The temperature of the whirlpool is assumed to be 190-210F.

    I have had great success with no bittering hops at the beginning of the boil. The first additions are added at 2-5 minutes (1 ounce of Cascade) and the majority are added in a 170F whirlpool. The effect is a firm, but smooth bitterness in the beer and fantastic flavor and aroma. Whirlpool additions are estimated to have 3-3.5% utilization in the whirlpool and I stand for 20 minutes. Brewers Friend has a field where you can set your utilization in the whirlpool.

    I given this beer to people and enter in competitions as well and no one complains about the bitterness. It doesn't come across like a NEIPA either. They say it's smooth and enjoyable. In fact I used this method with a beer in 2018 Minnesota Mashout and won a gold. The only negative comment from the judges was the bitterness was on the edge of being to high for a pale ale.

    If you haven't shifted your hop additions to later in the boil and into a whirlpool, you should try it. It works very well.
     
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  8. okoncentrerad

    okoncentrerad Active Member

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    Will the IBU recomendations for a certain style be obsolete when/if you skip bittering additions done the "classic way"? How will you know how much to add to a recipe? As it works now, like in the BF recipe builder, you get a help to find the right amount through the BU:GU ratio.
     
  9. Trialben

    Trialben Well-Known Member

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    the bitterness wil still be represented the big thing like highvoltageman said is your utilisation in the whirlpool/hop stand. i set my hopstand utilisarion at 5% brewersfriend defaults them at 10%. youll have to brew a few with heavy whirlpool additions to determine what your utilisation % is. i dont find i get a nice crisp clean bitterness from my hopstand this is why i (usually) add a small 5g magnum 60min charge. but i hopstand at 80c maybe ill try hotter hopstands in future for half hour without a 60min addition and see if me likes it:).
     
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  10. HighVoltageMan!

    HighVoltageMan! Well-Known Member

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    Trialben pretty much answered the question. You have to set your utilization base upon the temperature of your whirlpool. I whirlpool at 165-170F and I found I can set my utilization at 3-3.5%. I found this through trial and error. If the temperature was raised then I suppose the utilization percentage would have to raise. By using the calculator you can estimate your bitterness. I say this because you can never truly know for sure what your bitterness level is in your beer. It's becoming apparent to the brewing industry and homebrewers that bitterness is a sensory perception that is difficult to quantify in the lab or with brewing calculators. The real test for bitterness is determined by the person's perception and palate.
    Adding a small amount of Magnum (or Cascade) at beginning of the boil works really well. I shifted them to the whirlpool for the flavor and aroma. The bitterness did get "soft" if I didn't have a small amount of bicarbonates (hardness) in the water. I tried it with all RO and I didn't care for the bitterness, so I went back to have @ 25ppm of total bicarbonates, the bitterness was sharper and better defined. A ratio of 2:1 of sulfates to chlorides helps too. If you were to do a NEIPA, then flop the sulfate to chloride ratio to 1:2 and use 100% R/O. That gives a more "rounded" bitterness that NEIPA's are known for.
     
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  11. Group W

    Group W Well-Known Member

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    #11 Group W, Feb 21, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2018
    OK, I give in. Gonna give this a try tomorrow on an IPA. Calcing 70 IBUs. 6 gallon batch. Warrior up front and have 4 ounces of Ekuanot (Ekt) to play with. Here is the hop schedule I’m considering:
    0.8 oz Warrior @60
    1 oz Ekt @5
    1 oz Ekt @0
    1 oz Ekt whirlpool @ 170d, 15 min
    0.5 oz Ekt dry hop to primary, ~7 days
    0.5 oz Ekt dry hop to keg, 5 days

    I’m no expert with only a year of all grain experience. I would appreciate your comments. Thanks!
     
  12. HighVoltageMan!

    HighVoltageMan! Well-Known Member

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    You will get a nice bitter beer from this and it looks good, but the aroma and flavor may not stand out think you may think. Another option you could use is to shift the Warrior to 15-30 minutes in the boil, by doing so, the IBU's will drop. Then make it up by adding more hops to the flameout/whirlpool. But remember, it's up to you to make a beer you would like and not necessarily one that someone else would like it. I personally like a hop bomb, lots of aroma and flavor and a smooth bitterness to back it up. Not everyone likes that.

    I have used Ekuanot and blended them with Citra and Galaxy in the whirlpool with excellent results. It's not uncommon to use 12-16 ounces of hops per 5 gallons in a IPA, that's where shifting the hops to the whirlpool is so important and that's how you make those hop bombs. Lot's of hop flavor/aroma while keeping the bitterness down. The down side is the price of all those hops and the fear that it won't turn out.

    Make it the way you have it here, taste it after it's done, I think it will be a very nice beer. If you want more hop flavor, adjust it in the next brew. It's a matter of experimenting with these new techniques, there is no right or wrong way of doing it, but it is important to keep trying to adjust a recipe until you get the flavor your looking for. That's how you learn.
     
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  13. Group W

    Group W Well-Known Member

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    Thanks HVM. I forgot to mention I do 6 gallon batches. I think I have some Citra. Let’s see what others say.
     
  14. Trialben

    Trialben Well-Known Member

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    i love me some Equinox mmm mmm a lovely hop ive used it wth nelson Sauvin in a PA delightful beer. but what do you want a subtle hopped beer with some solid back of the throat tingling then stick with what youve got but if you want a more hop forward beer up your finnishing hops.

    https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/489088/hop-test-beer
     
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  15. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    Next newest fad. I'm not throwing a long, long time of experience away just because some yahoo claims to have had good luck with some newfangled method. Not doing mash hopping, hot-side aeration doesn't scare me, I won't aerate with olive oil, LoDo is a district in Denver and I'll believe in years of experience with flavor hops, thank you.
     
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  16. jeffpn

    jeffpn Well-Known Member

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    Right or wrong, I’ll just keep brewing the way I like to brew. I wonder who would cringe more at my brewing methods, John Palmer or Charlie P?
     
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  17. Trialben

    Trialben Well-Known Member

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    I know I wouldn't if I got free beer:)!
     
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  18. jeffpn

    jeffpn Well-Known Member

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    And free jerky, don’t forget that! ;)
     
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  19. HighVoltageMan!

    HighVoltageMan! Well-Known Member

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    First of all, it's not a fad. It basically taking advantage of a method that the pro's stumbled onto when they did the their whirlpool and they been doing this for decades. They had to leave the the late addition and flame out hops in contact without a boil and they got great results. It's possible to pull a lot of flavor from the hops without the beer being too bitter, that's the aim of this method. The latest addition of Zymology magazine covers this in their article on hops and bitterness and; specifically addresses whirlpool additions.

    Second, every time someone challenges an orthodoxy of brewing set by either Palmer or Papazian, it's immediately dismissed because they don't endorse this new method. I doubt either of these two authors would be comfortable with this conculsion. These men are fallible and new techniques are developed all the time, it's how progress is made.

    Calling me a yahoo is vain attempt to diminish my argument. It would be ideal if these ideas could be discussed in a friendly discourse without someone becoming offended or threatened by the idea. It's just a friendly chat about making beer, nothing more. If you don't agree with it, I'm okay with that and I'm sure others are as well.

    By the way, I take no offense in you calling me a yahoo, there are many days I would agree with you.
     
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  20. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    I agree with the assessment that the pros do it, but quite by accident. Most of their processes are either enclosed or present a very small surface area relative to the volume of beer, plus they have enough CO2 to blanket any surface area, so the oxygen level in commercial beer is naturally lower. I read the article. I read the magical thinking article on low dissolved oxygen. I agree with using whirlpool hops and do so frequently. I also agree with dry hopping, as long as it's something a person likes (I tend not to). I like my hops cooked. The problem I'm having more and more with BYO and Zymurgy is they either keep repeating the same stuff or they are publishing something so far out that I have problems believing it. In many cases, what I see is the dimensionality problem: If enough people try enough things, something is bound to get them the results they want (say a NHC championship or even a GABF medal) simply by random chance. I also find the "n=1" problem to be fairly prevalent in decisions about brewing technique, even with Brulosophy. One experimental run does not a finding make. But by all means, we should try new things. But a bombastic finding overturning centuries of brewing procedure, takes a bit more to convince me.

    And I, too, lay claim to the title of yahoo from time to time.
     
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