NEIPA whirlpool / Dry hop struggles (robobrew)

Discussion in 'Beginners Brewing Forum' started by Brewer #334545, Apr 6, 2021.

  1. Brewer #334545

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    Hey Everyone,
    i tried another batch of NEIPA and am getting pretty disappointing results with my hop aroma / flavors.
    Recipe for 5 gal batch
    12 lbs golden promise
    2 lbs white wheat
    2 lbs flaked oats
    2 lbs malted oats

    Mashed @154F

    boiled for 60 minutes

    whirlpool at 175F for 25 minutes
    4oz Galaxy
    2oz amarillo
    2oz Taiheke


    1 pack Escarpent Laerdal Kviek
    fermented at 90F until airlock activity stopped (3 days)
    and then drop temp down to 72F to dry hop (5 days)

    Dry Hop addition
    2oz Amarillo
    2oz Taiheke


    OG 1.075 FG 1.014

    while the body of the beer came out great and it certainly has juicy characteristics, its just they are so very mild.

    does anyone else struggle with this style?

    i know my hop basket is probably holding me back, during whirlpool i hose the hops in the basket until it almost fills and the splash the outside of the basket while it drains.

    as for dry hop, i have one of those 6" "salt shakers" the hops sunk straight to the bottom when i added them and they did swell to fill basket.

    any recommendations out there?

    thanks.

    -Will
     
  2. Craigerrr

    Craigerrr Well-Known Member

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    I dry hop at 11 grams per liter. Two separate additions. First addition within hours of pitching, second 24 hours later. I think that you could also cut back on your whirlpool hops 4-6 ounces should be plenty.
     
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  3. Donoroto

    Donoroto Well-Known Member

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    Does whirlpool tend to add less aroma than dry hop additions?
    That's been my experience at least.
    If you want to get walloped over the head by hops aroma, try brewing Wayner's Pale Ale (or at least look at the recipe), which was our 1Q21 community recipe.
     
  4. Craigerrr

    Craigerrr Well-Known Member

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    More flavor from whirlpool, but aroma as well. The recipe looks pretty good, Wayner's has Munich, and caramunich, you don'twant those in a NEIPA. Adding hops after fermentation is done, and not enough dry hops is the issue. I didn't think to ask about your water profile. Are you doing anything with your water? A minimum 2:1 (preferably 3:1) chloride to sulfate ratio will also make the hops sing.
     
  5. Brewer #334545

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    yeah i have a pretty soft water profile. so i add enough to get 100 ppm Ca 100ppm CL and 50 ppm sulphates. my other minerals are less than 10 ppm. i dont like to be aggressive on minerals because i think i over did it once and got a metallic taste.


    the thing that baffles me, is while the body is great and the haze is wonderful. i really only seem to get a yeast ester flavor. it so underwhelming that it leaves me baffled. there is some aroma but its faint.
    Its lie the kveik has muted the hops or something.
    i think next time i will add galaxy to the dry hop and try ale yeast.

    -Will
     
  6. Craigerrr

    Craigerrr Well-Known Member

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    Will

    You asked:
    does anyone else struggle with this style? I do not struggle with this style
    any recommendations out there? Here are my recommendations

    Sounds like you have the water chemistry right - check

    my hop basket is probably holding me back
    I used a hop basket once, returned it after that, I use a paint strainer bag, much better for me

    as for dry hop, i have one of those 6" "salt shakers"
    I recommend dumping the hops directly into the fermenter, during peak fermentation
    They refer to this as biotransformation, which is a fancy word for "this works wonders for hop aroma and flavor"
    You are not adding enough hops in my opinion to get the flavor and aroma that you are looking for
    I would recommend doubling your dry hops, add a total of 4oz ounces as soon as fermentation takes off, and add another 4 ounces 24 hours later, or at least while fermentation is still active. With VOSS I am adding charge one within hours of pitching, and charge two the next morning.

    fermented at 90F until airlock activity stopped (3 days), and then drop temp down to 72F to dry hop (5 days)
    As noted above, add dry hops during active fermentation
    Once fermentation is complete, I would highly recommend a good 3 day cold crash.
    This seems to be in conflict with getting the haze you are looking for, but it is not.
    What this accomplishes is to have the yeast (and other less desirables) in suspension to fall out of the beer.
    This will take care of the yeast flavor you are describing.
    What you should remember is that the haze is not the goal with this style. The haze is a byproduct of the necessary water profile, process, and ingredients required to get the flavor, aroma, and texture desired.

    whirlpool at 175F for 25 minutes
    4oz Galaxy
    2oz amarillo
    2oz Taiheke

    I think that you could knock this back to a total of 6 ounces, and 25 minutes is fine, but 15-20 is plenty.
    You are likely to get more bang from you hop buck by using a paint strainer bag than the basket.

    Its lie the kveik has muted the hops or something.

    You are probably correct partially about the yeast muting the hops as it is A) probably still in suspension to some degree, and B) the hops were added after fermentation was complete, so you did not get the full potential impact of the hops, and to boot you were a bit shy on the dry hop rate.

    i think next time i will add galaxy to the dry hop
    Definitely! move two ounces from the whirlpool, and add another two of Galaxy!

    and try ale yeast.

    If you want to try an ale yeast S-04 would be a great choice. I have never used Laerdal, so I can't comment on it's flavor contribution.
    I can however highly recommend VOSS, Lallemand dry is convenient to pitch, and I have had great results with it.

    Here are pictures of my two most recent NEIPA's, both cold crashed 3-4 days, and fermented with VOSS.
    Hate to brag (not really), but flavor and aroma was out of this world on both of these.

    I hope this helps (trust me, it will :D)

    20210326_212753 - cropped.jpg 20210212_164917.jpg
     
  7. Brewer #334545

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    Hey craiger, that looks great. as an update. my problem was there was still yeast in suspension. the flavor is great but still missing out on aroma, i will beef up the dry hop next time and swap out one of my hops for a more aromatic ones
     
  8. Craigerrr

    Craigerrr Well-Known Member

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    Amarillo is a great hop for dry additions (in my opinion) To be honest, I have never heard of the other one. One other thing is to be sure and use fresh hops, if you are storing them after opening a package, they will stay fresh if you vacuum seal them.
     
  9. HighVoltageMan!

    HighVoltageMan! Well-Known Member

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    Looking at your recipe, I think your hops bill needs to be increased. I use 12 ounces per 5 gallons on a west coast pale ale, for an IPA I bump it up to 20-24 ounces for west coast styles. These new hoppy styles are very wasteful in their hop use, but it's worth it. West coast styles have been drifting toward the NEIPA style over the last couple of years, lower bitterness, lots of fruity hop flavor, but still very clear.

    NEIPA's are different, but similar. If your bitterness is where you like it with your recipe, then add more in the dry hopping. Craig is more experienced then me on this style, but I have tried dry hopping at high krausen and I did not get the same aroma as when it was done fermenting. In fact I want the yeast to drop out before dry hopping. Whirlpooled hops will show up in aroma, but mostly in the flavor. The hard part about getting flavor from the whirlpool is that it drives the bitterness up too high, so the hops need to be added to the dry hop.

    I have not like any IPA's I have done with kviek yeast, maybe a change of yeast would help. Wyeast 1318 is a beast and may improve the beer.
     
  10. Craigerrr

    Craigerrr Well-Known Member

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    Good points HVM
    You can also play with whirlpool temperature to affect bitterness.
    Higher temperature higher bitterness, lower temperature, lower bitterness.
    At the end of the day it all comes down to taste, and we all like different things.
    With NEIPA some of the haze, and juicy flavor comes from hopping during fermentation.
    I agree about West Coast styles drifting as you mention. When I brewed your Q1 recipe I dry hopped it like a NEIPA...

    To your first point, definitely need more hops in the fermenter to get the aroma.
    Some consider this a waste, but here is how it works for me.
    I think of flavor and aroma hops like Simon and Garfunkel, the sum of the two separately do not equal the two together.
    For me aroma enhances flavor, and flavor enhances aroma, reduce one or the other and it is disappointing.
    This is just what works for me, and this is the beauty of homebrewing!
     
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  11. Donoroto

    Donoroto Well-Known Member

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    Now there's a quote!
     
  12. Craigerrr

    Craigerrr Well-Known Member

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    It's true, the two senses together are greater than the sum of the two separately! Just like Simon and Garfunkel. Simon was great on his own, but no where as great when they were together. And poor Art, what did he do some paintings after they split up?
     
  13. BarbarianBrewer

    BarbarianBrewer Well-Known Member

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    I think this is The Quote! Very Zen-like @Craigerrr.
     
  14. Craigerrr

    Craigerrr Well-Known Member

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  15. Hawkbox

    Hawkbox Well-Known Member

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    I love Cylon and Garfunkel!
     
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  16. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    By your command....
     
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  17. Hawkbox

    Hawkbox Well-Known Member

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    For anyone confused by the reference.
     
  18. BarbarianBrewer

    BarbarianBrewer Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't aware of that episode and I still thought "Cylon & Garfunkel" was funny. :)
     
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  19. Craigerrr

    Craigerrr Well-Known Member

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    Same...
     

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