Mystery Aroma & Flavor: Dry, 'powdery' SweetTart™-like

[Mont Y. Märzen]

I have recently detected what I can so far best describe as a dry & powdery SweetTart-like aroma and flavor. I've experienced this before when judging, but it has been some years. I find it strange to detect it so much back-to-back. (over a course of maybe 3 weeks)

I've found it in three recent brews, none of them mine, so I can't yet speak to ingredients or processes. Two were from subsequent batches of two different styles from one friend, the third from another friend. Both brewers are experienced and accomplished, not rookies. (not that anyone can't have a bad batch of course, I certainly have.)

All three are quite pronounced, but the 3rd is the strongest, likely due to higher ABV.

Unfortunately, the above doesn't quite fully describe it, but that is as close as I can get at the moment. There may be a mix of things going on. I can't really nail down the 'flavor' of the sugary-powder, but it leans towards Apple and maybe Berry/Cherry.

Mouthfeel effect is very dry, almost tannic or chalk-like, though the chalkiness subsides as it warms and you drink more and transitions to 'white wine'.

Overall, the effect is unpleasant to varying degrees and detracts from the beer, so I'll consider it an 'off' aroma and flavor. (and though I don't eat that junk any more, I do like SweetTarts.)

On further thought, this is more like crushed/powdered Smarties candies. (usually seen around Halloween, not sure if that is a regional thing for me.) They are less tart and sweet and more like compressed dry-powdered corn sugar.

Ideas?

Causes?

Anyone ever experience this?

 

[Megary]

Just guessing but:

1. Improper fermentation. When I hear off flavors, I always go to the yeast first. Obviously, there are so many variables (pitch temp, rate, yeast health and on and on...) and even though these are experienced brewers, yeast being yeast, anything is possible.
2. Water chemistry. "Powdery" (or "Chalky") makes me think high mineral load, and I get that from a lot of beers. I often feel like someone dissolved a Tums in my beer. I can see that as being Smarties-like.

What were the styles?

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

Just guessing but:

1. Improper fermentation. When I hear off flavors, I always go to the yeast first. Obviously, there are so many variables (pitch temp, rate, yeast health and on and on...) and even though these are experienced brewers, yeast being yeast, anything is possible.
2. Water chemistry. "Powdery" (or "Chalky") makes me think high mineral load, and I get that from a lot of beers. I often feel like someone dissolved a Tums in my beer. I can see that as being Smarties-like.

What were the styles?

Thanks, I too thought of a mineral problem. And that indeed may be the cause. One of them had baking soda added in the fermenter to reduce an unwanted 'tang' and to slightly bump pH. I'll ask if the other two had it added as well.

French Saison
Irish Red
Braggot

 

[Brew Cat]

look for commonalities of the two brewers
have they shared and re pitched yeast maybe ?

 

[Minbari]

Are you sure there is no wild yeast, brett contamination?

 

[Bigbre04]

Drying is a descriptor that can be attributed to high alcohol flavors. same with sweetness.

likely a temp control issue or a yeast stress issue. could have come from overly hot fermentation. I am not 100% but it could also come from underpitching...i think.

Atleast its not #clove right!


Saisons can throw some strange flavors especially if the temp gets out of control. They also dry out so far that they can really over high light off flavors. could also be diastastaticus. if it started in the saison and they fermented in the same vessel it is very possible that it survived the cleaning. if it is the statiticus the will know in a short time when bottles start exploding. i have some legit trauma from years of dealing with staticus.

 

[Brew Cat]

Drying is a descriptor that can be attributed to high alcohol flavors. same with sweetness.

likely a temp control issue or a yeast stress issue. could have come from overly hot fermentation. I am not 100% but it could also come from underpitching...i think.

Atleast its not #clove right!

well sure but two different breweries having the exact same experience is coincidental
both could have blown the temperature control
it could be the sensitivity of the taster I guess but either way both breweries are producing the off flavor which is odd

 

[Bigbre04]

well sure but two different breweries having the exact same experience is coincidental
both could have blown the temperature control
it could be the sensitivity of the taster I guess but either way both breweries are producing the off flavor which is odd

true. unless they shared yeast or something. but those styles are not generally high abv. I would guess that the red got either got infected or there was temp issues that had nothing to do with the yeast.

 

[Brew Cat]

Drying is a descriptor that can be attributed to high alcohol flavors. same with sweetness.

likely a temp control issue or a yeast stress issue. could have come from overly hot fermentation. I am not 100% but it could also come from underpitching...i think.

Atleast its not #clove right!


Saisons can throw some strange flavors especially if the temp gets out of control. They also dry out so far that they can really over high light off flavors. could also be diastastaticus. if it started in the saison and they fermented in the same vessel it is very possible that it survived the cleaning. if it is the statiticus the will know in a short time when bottles start exploding. i have some legit trauma from years of dealing with staticus.

Im surprised you didn't blame the Saison yeast

 

[Bigbre04]

Im surprised you didn't blame the Saison yeast

lol i totally blame the saison yeast. that shit will never cross the threshold at my spot. fuck that noise.

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

Thanks, I too thought of a mineral problem. And that indeed may be the cause. One of them had baking soda added in the fermenter to reduce an unwanted 'tang' and to slightly bump pH. I'll ask if the other two had it added as well.

French Saison
Irish Red
Braggot

I can report that the 1st brewer (Saison & Red) did indeed add Baking Soda in both fermenters because he thought pH was a bit low and it had a tang to the taste. (He since ordered a new probe for his meter as he also thinks it wasn't working properly)

The Braggot did not have Baking Soda added, but we also don't have a recent water report from his tap to know if bicarbonate was already high.

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

look for commonalities of the two brewers
have they shared and re pitched yeast maybe ?

Possibly, I'll have to inquire more. I've chatted with both about it separately. We may do a tasting together to see if we can brainstorm the cause.

As far as I am aware, 3 different strains were used for each brew and the Saison and Red were new packs.

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

Are you sure there is no wild yeast, brett contamination?

No Brett character. And that would be odd from two different brewers 10+ miles apart within such a short time span.

How would we confirm that? (other than waiting to see what a subsequent batch from each using the same fermenters produces)

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

Drying is a descriptor that can be attributed to high alcohol flavors. same with sweetness.

likely a temp control issue or a yeast stress issue. could have come from overly hot fermentation. I am not 100% but it could also come from underpitching...i think.

Atleast its not #clove right!

Ha!

Saisons can throw some strange flavors especially if the temp gets out of control. They also dry out so far that they can really over high light off flavors. could also be diastastaticus. if it started in the saison and they fermented in the same vessel it is very possible that it survived the cleaning. if it is the statiticus the will know in a short time when bottles start exploding. i have some legit trauma from years of dealing with staticus.

I don't recall the exact source but the Saison used the French strain which is indeed STA1+, and it was fermented before the Red, so that is a possibility. But that doesn't explain the Braggot by a different brewer in a different vessel.

The Braggot was indeed 'hot' in terms of ABV: 10%!, but it was fermented under proper control. (all 3 batches were) I can't speak to specific pitch rate yet, but both brewers regularly make starters to build their cultures up properly.

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

A second bottle of Braggot still had the oddity, but not nearly as strong. I also let it warm up a bit (74℉) and it nearly (not entirely) disappeared.

The search continues...

 

[Donoroto]

Is it possible some joker spiked your beer with…a sweetart?

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

Is it possible some joker spiked your beer with…a sweetart?

Nope.

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

lol i totally blame the saison yeast. that shit will never cross the threshold at my spot. fuck that noise.

I can report now that the Braggot used a fresh pitch with starter of Escaprment's House Ale yeast, not the Saison strain the other brewer used.

As a reminder, it was the Braggot that had this aroma and flavor most prominent. I suspect it was enhanced by the 10% ABV though. (the other two beers were probably in the 5.5–6.5% range, but need to confirm)

Note, the brewer of the Braggot doesn't detect this aroma or flavor, so far. Since I detected a much lower (but still present) level in a second bottle, I'm going to try really hard not to touch the other two for several weeks to see what happens. There may also be some more tasting of the Saison & Red in the interim to see if it survives or mellows out to something else.

 

[Dave Y]

well sure but two different breweries having the exact same experience is coincidental
both could have blown the temperature control
it could be the sensitivity of the taster I guess but either way both breweries are producing the off flavor which is odd

I can report now that the Braggot used a fresh pitch with starter of Escaprment's House Ale yeast, not the Saison strain the other brewer used.

As a reminder, it was the Braggot that had this aroma and flavor most prominent. I suspect it was enhanced by the 10% ABV though. (the other two beers were probably in the 5.5–6.5% range, but need to confirm)

Note, the brewer of the Braggot doesn't detect this aroma or flavor, so far. Since I detected a much lower (but still present) level in a second bottle, I'm going to try really hard not to touch the other two for several weeks to see what happens. There may also be some more tasting of the Saison & Red in the interim to see if it survives or mellows out to something else.

I've adopted a saying from a former cow-orker "The thing about coincidences is, they usually take a lot of planning".
I saw ABV, but I didn't see FG on any of them. What were they respectively?

I'm leaning towards yeast, temp control, etc. as well but; Are they using some kind of funky tap water? I lived at a house with a water supply full of sulphur. You could taste it in tap water, all the whites turned yellow in the laundry and if you made anything with the tap water - like say, iced tea, it smelled like rotten eggs.

For the Braggot, how was the honey added to the recipe? That aroma could very well be a characteristic of the honey source. My supplier just started getting horsemint honey in again after a couple years of drought; it has a mint like aroma sometimes, and has a distinctively peppery flavor finish that fits nicely with a Saison. But, you're completely at the mercy of the bees here. My guys know their bees hunting grounds and ... one is actually a honey sommelier. Who knew there was such a thing?

Let's set the Braggot aside.

The other 2 beers; can anyone else detect and identify the same aroma or profile? Not the brewers, it's tough for us to be objective about our own products. Aroma and palate are quite subjective and not something we can easily distinguish between independent reviewers. I'm not saying it's you...

I'm just sayin', maybe it's you ;-)

When I harvested hops a few weeks ago, I sent a bunch back up on the line, had to bring the lines down from the other end and got the wife involved. I gave her instructions on what to feel and smell for. She grabbed a bunch I'd sent back up and I quizzed her ; "these smell citrus like". I tried... Nothing.
Tried again... nada. zip. zero. So she can perceive aroma better than me.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6381007/#s3

Chicks.... who knew?
(now I do).

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

I've adopted a saying from a former cow-orker "The thing about coincidences is, they usually take a lot of planning".
I saw ABV, but I didn't see FG on any of them. What were they respectively?

I don't know but can find out. The point about the ABV was that perhaps the levels of alcohol brought it out more, particularly in the Braggot.

Is there a particular FG or attenuation level you think might be the culprit? Why would that be the case?

I'm leaning towards yeast, temp control, etc. as well but; Are they using some kind of funky tap water? I lived at a house with a water supply full of sulphur. You could taste it in tap water, all the whites turned yellow in the laundry and if you made anything with the tap water - like say, iced tea, it smelled like rotten eggs.

Different yeasts, temp control on point via Inkbirds and confirmed with Rapt pills in the first two beers. (Braggot was just Inkbird)

Same overall city water system, but two very different stations serving them. The system strives for consistency in their final product, but of course, can't nail it perfectly. One of them has a water report about 2 years old and didn't show any weirdness. We plan to update that and get one for the 2nd brewer (among other locations in town) soon. The 2nd one (Braggot) indeed was until very recently on a funky small system that was taken over by the city. They did a massive flush, but of course, they didn't replace all feeder lines and the house wasn't re-plumbed either. Note, this same brewer is quite prolific. None of their other various recent brews have this aroma or flavor. (and none of the other brewers prior batches did either.)

Could this have been a temporary blip in the source water from the city system-wide? Yes. Might we figure out what changed? Doubtful.

However, there are of course other brewers on this water system. They have been brewing during this same time frame. We'll need to see if their brews follow the pattern or not.

For the Braggot, how was the honey added to the recipe? That aroma could very well be a characteristic of the honey source. My supplier just started getting horsemint honey in again after a couple years of drought; it has a mint like aroma sometimes, and has a distinctively peppery flavor finish that fits nicely with a Saison. But, you're completely at the mercy of the bees here. My guys know their bees hunting grounds and ... one is actually a honey sommelier. Who knew there was such a thing?

Added to fermenter, chilled beer racked on top to mix. Yes, the honey could be a source. But only for the Braggot.

Two independent sources aren't impossible, just highly improbable, especially so close in time.

This brewer is also a mead maker. I've tried many of them. None of them have this. It *might* be a new variety of honey he used. I'll check.

Let's set the Braggot aside.

The other 2 beers; can anyone else detect and identify the same aroma or profile? Not the brewers, it's tough for us to be objective about our own products. Aroma and palate are quite subjective and not something we can easily distinguish between independent reviewers. I'm not saying it's you...

I'm just sayin', maybe it's you ;-)

Indeed. We haven't done an independent tasting yet. We might well do so if we have enough bottles left. The Braggot maker couldn't detect it, but did understand my Smarties reference point. I don't think the other brewer has cracked one of his yet to see if it is still there.

When I harvested hops a few weeks ago, I sent a bunch back up on the line, had to bring the lines down from the other end and got the wife involved. I gave her instructions on what to feel and smell for. She grabbed a bunch I'd sent back up and I quizzed her ; "these smell citrus like". I tried... Nothing.
Tried again... nada. zip. zero. So she can perceive aroma better than me.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6381007/#s3

Chicks.... who knew?
(now I do).

Funny you mention that. I just listened to a podcast of False Bottomed Girls with Jen Blair covering the topic of "Myths in Sensory" and male vs. female is one of them. She alleges (which seems to jive with the study you linked) that there is no statistically significant difference in ability. The difference is in training and exposure that women have more specific and varied reference points giving them better descriptive language compared to men. That's environment, not genetics. Anyone can gain that experience and language by training. (She's also a Master Cicerone and trains judges and sensory panels.)

And yes, some people really don't smell some things at all, or have a much higher threshold for it. (that podcast also covers this to some extent as a myth, that what really happens is short term desensitization, which can be fixed or at least mitigated.)